About Marches

[Athan.]

Marches are specifically to make a military vassal. I don't know where you guys get this idea that they you are supposed to blob these guys up and annex them later. You turn nations with good military ideas into marches: Brandenburg, Poland, Ottomans, moldavia, ryzan, nepal, etc... You get them to 55-60 base tax and that's it. You declare war and they send their troops. With moldavia for example - they start with 10% morale and they get some more military bonus's in their ideas. You feed them some land and they contriubte alot of miltary support.

The reason you can turn them back into vassals is because in 100years things could change. It gives you some options.

Finally, someone who grasps it! I was reading this thread shaking my head. Marches are extremely situational, but can be very useful in those situations. I also tend to like having one vassal in my pocket at all times to run around sieging and destroying the things I might have missed with my larger army. To have that be a specifically military vassal is now a bonus. Like he said, these are not meant for you to annex in the near future, that's just a rare option if the situation massively changes and they are no longer managing your border in 100 years.

With that said, I agree that the 60 basetax rule that removes their march bonuses should also change them to a vassal, since that's essentially the way most marches progressed over time as their border became stable.

 

[Viperswhip]

Finally, someone who grasps it! I was reading this thread shaking my head. Marches are extremely situational, but can be very useful in those situations. I also tend to like having one vassal in my pocket at all times to run around sieging and destroying the things I might have missed with my larger army. To have that be a specifically military vassal is now a bonus. Like he said, these are not meant for you to annex in the near future, that's just a rare option if the situation massively changes and they are no longer managing your border in 100 years.

With that said, I agree that the 60 basetax rule that removes their march bonuses should also change them to a vassal, since that's essentially the way most marches progressed over time as their border became stable.

Ahhh, well, okay thank you. I do not have any supreme military nations around me, but when I get into the North I will keep that in mind. Yes, to keep their ideas, very important in those regions.

 

[Less]

You don't use marches to vassal feed and then annex. That is what vassals are for. And vassal feeding isn't very good unless you get the right idea groups for it now. If you just plan on blobbing then you get Admin ideas for reduced coring cost and just core everything - you only use vassal feeding for nations that have the increased coring cost, it still affects diplo points but its still better then coring. If your blobbing you just put your national focus on admin and away you go.

Not sure how you figure that Vassal Feeding isn't good. Coring with Admin and claims (PITA to fabricate them all and gives you extra AE) tops out at around -50% = 10 ADM per BT. Diplo-annexing starts at 10 DIP per BT and hits 7.5 DIP per BT with Influence. Furthermore the rest of Influence is arguably far better than the rest of Administrative and DIP points are worth far less than ADM points to begin with. As another bonus vassal feeding lets you take far more than 100% OE worth of land in one go by dividing it amongst several vassals without facing any penalties, we're talking hundreds of BT in a single go.

 

[Prom_STar]

I would assume the strongest use of marches is an HRE vassal swarm. Revoke the privileges, turn all vassals into marches, declare wars and just sit back to watch.

 

[Qoff]

I would assume the strongest use of marches is an HRE vassal swarm. Revoke the privileges, turn all vassals into marches, declare wars and just sit back to watch.

Haha this would be disturbing.

 

[User4035]

Not sure how you figure that Vassal Feeding isn't good. Coring with Admin and claims (PITA to fabricate them all and gives you extra AE) tops out at around -50% = 10 ADM per BT. Diplo-annexing starts at 10 DIP per BT and hits 7.5 DIP per BT with Influence. Furthermore the rest of Influence is arguably far better than the rest of Administrative and DIP points are worth far less than ADM points to begin with. As another bonus vassal feeding lets you take far more than 100% OE worth of land in one go by dividing it amongst several vassals without facing any penalties, we're talking hundreds of BT in a single go.

Thats what I said - if you take the right idea groups then vassal feeding is fine.

But people are complaining that vassal feeding a march is difficult because of the hoops you have to go through to anenex it. They don't reallize that marchers are not meant to be annexed.

If your playing a nation with no military bonus's like say the Palatinate. Your gonna take diplo ideas, influence, etc... gonna make BB and poland into marches - takes advantage of your extra diplo slots.
Marches are basically your war vassals.

If you play as ottomans what are you going to do? Your going to take admin because it stacks with your national ideas. Your going to core most provinces, only vassal feed if your conquering.


As it stands now its hard to debate the specific mechanics because we are testing a beta expansion with tons of bugs. Why aren't marches fabricating claims? who knows? Heh, 2 days ago you could set your march as your rival.

 

[Viperswhip]

Thats what I said - if you take the right idea groups then vassal feeding is fine.

But people are complaining that vassal feeding a march is difficult because of the hoops you have to go through to anenex it. They don't reallize that marchers are not meant to be annexed.

If your playing a nation with no military bonus's like say the Palatinate. Your gonna take diplo ideas, influence, etc... gonna make BB and poland into marches - takes advantage of your extra diplo slots.
Marches are basically your war vassals.

If you play as ottomans what are you going to do? Your going to take admin because it stacks with your national ideas. Your going to core most provinces, only vassal feed if your conquering.


As it stands now its hard to debate the specific mechanics because we are testing a beta expansion with tons of bugs. Why aren't marches fabricating claims? who knows? Heh, 2 days ago you could set your march as your rival.

We know they are not meant to be annexed, what we didn't account for is the national ideas of military oriented nations, and thus making the March more valuable.

Thus Marches are only valuable in that situation, no other, because 20 years down the line you may regret making them a March as you wish to more easily expand past them. Now, I won't mind a military oriented March in the middle of my empire. Look at poor Poland though, Moldavia is not a military nation, that March is tiny and sucks.

Guys, the way to lose a March and no suffer the penalty!!!!!!!

Lose a war, or just try make peace and offer the release of the nation, if they are small enough, you can just either force vassalize them after the truce or annex, no muss, no fuss.

 

[Less]

Thats what I said - if you take the right idea groups then vassal feeding is fine.

Perhaps you should re-read what I said. Without idea groups vassal feeding is as strong or stronger than coring is with idea groups + claims.

If your playing a nation with no military bonus's like say the Palatinate. Your gonna take diplo ideas, influence, etc... gonna make BB and poland into marches - takes advantage of your extra diplo slots.
Marches are basically your war vassals.

The problem is they offer virtually no benefit compared to normal vassals. The modifiers are paltry and will amount to barely an extra regiment at best.

 

[Turboflex]

I'm going to try a Venice game with the protected trade achievement so I will be limited in expansion. I figure Serbia will make a good march.

 

[Dorevai]

25% bonus to manpower, a 30% bonus to force limits and have 20% better fort defense was quoted in the dev diary. That sounds about right. That's pretty damn good up to 60 BT. A swedish march would be pretty decent as Russia. I don't think Sweden even gets to 60 BT with Skane, Bohuslan, and Jamtland. Maybe just over with Skane, but you can have them hand that to Denmark. The swedes are vicious. A turkish march as Byz/Per/Mam would be pretty nice too. Take their coasts, release the balkans, have them sit in the anatolian mountains, ready to strike at your enemies. I'm trying to remember if the afghans or punjab have decent military ideas to use against Russia in the great game.

 

[TheDanish]

25% bonus to manpower, a 30% bonus to force limits and have 20% better fort defense was quoted in the dev diary. That sounds about right. That's pretty damn good up to 60 BT. A swedish march would be pretty decent as Russia. I don't think Sweden even gets to 60 BT with Skane, Bohuslan, and Jamtland. Maybe just over with Skane, but you can have them hand that to Denmark. The swedes are vicious. A turkish march as Byz/Per/Mam would be pretty nice too. Take their coasts, release the balkans, have them sit in the anatolian mountains, ready to strike at your enemies. I'm trying to remember if the afghans or punjab have decent military ideas to use against Russia in the great game.

If I was playing Denmark and Sweden broke free, I wouldn't even be mad. I'd try to vassalize them and make them my glorious buffer against the Russians.

 

[Mztr44]

Something I noticed with Marches as well which goes along in the discussion. You don't suffer a stability hit, at least according to the DOW screen, for DOW on a March you own, whereas you get a 2 stab hit for DOW on a vassal you own. I don't know if it removes the March from your posession, and not going to test it in my ironman game.

 

[Thesian]

Something I noticed with Marches as well which goes along in the discussion. You don't suffer a stability hit, at least according to the DOW screen, for DOW on a March you own, whereas you get a 2 stab hit for DOW on a vassal you own. I don't know if it removes the March from your posession, and not going to test it in my ironman game.

It does remove the March and gives no more opinion penalties than any DOW, so you could vassalise them again if you feel like it. However, you can't fabricate claims on your subjects, so you either need another CB like Holy War/Cleasing of Heresy or you have to feed them a province you have a claim on.

 

[Mztr44]

It does remove the March and gives no more opinion penalties than any DOW, so you could vassalise them again if you feel like it. However, you can't fabricate claims on your subjects, so you either need another CB like Holy War/Cleasing of Heresy or you have to feed them a province you have a claim on.

Well, AOW has the two new CB's as well, Imperialism and Nationalism. Need to reach high diplo tech to get them though.

 

[MadDjinn]

Fabricate a claim on another nation, win the war, give the province to your March, have claim.

 

[Pugman]

Think of Hansa with Brandenburg as a march. The utility of that arrangement should be obvious.

 

[RaptorCommander]

Do they pick Military Ideas? Well 80% military ideas (including innovation)?

Cause in the end game that is all that matters, if a March will pick military ideas then I can pick other things but if not then I am stuck picking all the Mil ideas (minus naval, possible skip quantity) + innovation + something else.

 

[Pugman]

Do they pick Military Ideas? Well 80% military ideas (including innovation)?

Cause in the end game that is all that matters, if a March will pick military ideas then I can pick other things but if not then I am stuck picking all the Mil ideas (minus naval, possible skip quantity) + innovation + something else.

They go with innovation, offensive, quality, i forget the rest. They have an excellent military.

 

[Reezy]

Do marches work with nation combination decisions? For example, could England with a marched Scotland create Great Britain without taking any penalties?

 

[Pugman]

Do marches work with nation combination decisions? For example, could England with a marched Scotland create Great Britain without taking any penalties?

I was wondering the same thing, but just as I was going to test it as England I got a low legitimacy ruler and couldn't enact the decision.