About Istria

[.Me]

I usually focus on small "futile" details xD, now I wanted to open a debate about the Istrian peninsula.
Many areas of the map have mutated and were corrected in time to make them look more realistic, while Istria is roughly the same since the days of Eu3.




Moreover, since the end of the Roman Empire until today Istria was populated by a native neo-latin people, Istriot:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istriot_language
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istrian_Italians#History
Only since the XIV century the Republic of Venice began to resettle the Istrian countryside with a large number of Slavs (mainly from Montenegro) because of depopulation caused by the plague, the "black death".
But it would take a long time before Istria became a place where the Slavic element is predominant, This is believed to have happened under the Hapsburg (XVII or XVIII century).

On the other hand, cities like Pola (now pula) and Capodistria (now Kopar) was important centers of the Italian Renaissance as it regards the Venetian area, and the "divine comedy" of Dante Alighieri speaks about Pola:
"Sì come a Pola, presso del Carnaro, ch'Italia chiude e i suoi termini bagna" or "As Pola, along the Quarnero, that marks the end of Italy and bathes its boundaries".
In my humble opinion, the region of Istria in Eu4 should be of Venetian culture at least until the middle of 1600.

 

[WeissRaben]

As should Trent. On the other hand, Savoie should be "Burgundian" (Arpitan would be better, but).

 

[Porsenna]

Gorz, centered as it is on the city of "Gorizia" should probably be Venetian as well...

 

[EldarPanic]

"Pula" such a funny name.

 

[InFerroVeritas]

Venice controlled, either directly or indirectly (or sometimes just through pure economic might even if they didn't have a de jure political presence), basically every major port of note along the eastern coast of the Aegean... and a whole mess of them scattered across the Ionian. Unfortunately, because of how EU4 works, you could never accurately model that. You can totally do it in CK2, though.

I'm just happy that Negropont is apparently its own province in Common Sense.

 

[Porsenna]

We're talking about Province cultures in the area around Venice that have historical (and for Gorizia, still very much present) Romance or Italian populations...

 

[Vaximillian]

Gorz, centered as it is on the city of "Gorizia" should probably be Venetian as well...

As though Austria cares. Culture convert all the things!

 

[Porsenna]

The other culture in the region shouldn't be Austrian either, but Slovenian... and let Austria culture convert it if it can/wants to- but let it start out at least as something more historical. (And any thing that raises the chance Aquileia can spring back into existence is a good thing, lol)

 

[Fluffy_Fishy]

Negroponte is finally its own place? Where did you see thst i do hope its true

 

[Vaximillian]

Negroponte is finally its own place? Where did you see thst i do hope its true

Wiz told about it loooooong ago. I'm afraid I'm not going to dig the post up though.

 

[.Me]

As should Trent. On the other hand, Savoie should be "Burgundian" (Arpitan would be better, but).

True, the Germanization of the region of Trent (Trento) started only with Maximilian I of Habsburg (1459-1519) and it was never completed until today, I also agree about the Savoy, the Italian population has always been a minority in that region.

 

[Mr. Habba]

True, the Germanization of the region of Trent (Trento) started only with Maximilian I of Habsburg (1459-1519) and it was never completed until today, I also agree about the Savoy, the Italian population has always been a minority in that region.

That is true. However, it really depends on what the in-game province of Trent represents. It's culture is Austrian and it's capital is Meran, so I think P'dox meant to represent the southern parts of (German) Tyrol, which were (largely) Austrian since around 600-700. This notion is reinforced by the fact that in one of the latest Common Sense screenshots, the province is actually named Südtirol. So for both design and gameplay reasons, this province should be Austrian. The problem is that because of this, Austrian culture reaches too far south. I think this could only be modelled historically accurate when the province layout would be changed: the southern part of the Tyrol province as well as the northern parts of the Trent province should be made its own province (called Südtirol), while the southern part of the Trent province should become Italian.

On the original topic: I don't know about Gorizia/Görz, but Istria should probalby be made Italian.

 

[WeissRaben]

That is true. However, it really depends on what the in-game province of Trent represents. It's culture is Austrian and it's capital is Meran, so I think P'dox meant to represent the southern parts of (German) Tyrol, which were (largely) Austrian since around 600-700. This notion is reinforced by the fact that in one of the latest Common Sense screenshots, the province is actually named Südtirol. So for both design and gameplay reasons, this province should be Austrian. The problem is that because of this, Austrian culture reaches too far south. I think this could only be modelled historically accurate when the province layout would be changed: the southern part of the Tyrol province as well as the northern parts of the Trent province should be made its own province (called Südtirol), while the southern part of the Trent province should become Italian.

On the original topic: I don't know about Gorizia/Görz, but Istria should probalby be made Italian.

The problem being, of course, that Meran is not in that province. There's Bozen, but only barely. The current province is almost completely Trentino, with some scraps of Südtirol.

 

[Nyos86]

Capodistria is called Koper today not Kopar since it is part of Slovenia not Croatia.

 

[heliostellar]

I'd like for Croatia to get a core on it, personally.

 

[.Me]

I'd like for Croatia to get a core on it, personally.

Istria has never been part of Croatia until the end of the second world war. And until the beginning of 1700 the Slavic population was a minority. Why put a croatian core here? :/

 

[talilu]

How about the Istro-Romanians? I find them to be very interesting but did they ever form a majoirty?

And off topic: Shouldn't Ragusa be a Dalmatian Primary Culture state with Ragusa and Dalmatia provinces being Dalmatian. It's not like Dalmatians never existed and unlike Slovene/Slovak, Ragusan Republic tried to protect and legalize the language.

 

[.Me]

How about the Istro-Romanians? I find them to be very interesting but did they ever form a majoirty?

And off topic: Shouldn't Ragusa be a Dalmatian Primary Culture state with Ragusa and Dalmatia provinces being Dalmatian. It's not like Dalmatians never existed and unlike Slovene/Slovak, Ragusan Republic tried to protect and legalize the language.

From what I know the istro-romanians are descendants of populations of wallachian origin who were fleeing from the Ottoman invasions, relatives of the Vlachs of Moravia, who instead fled to north http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moravian_Wallachia
But, in the ancient time, the Istriot language was part of the Rhaeto-Romance languages, that stretched from Istria to Switzerland.

Over time it was gradually influenced by the Venetian, and today It has become almost indistinguishable.

OT: the issue is very complex regarding Ragusa. We know that in the tenth and eleventh centuries the whole of Dalmatia was inhabited by Romance people, and they called themselves "Romans" we know this from a Byzantine source, de administrando imperio, notable is that the bizantines also call them Romans, (Ρωμᾶνοι), and not Romaioi (Ρωμαῖοι) the term they used to refer to themselves as Romans of Greek language. In the fourteenth century, however, it seems that they had slowly become a minority, replaced by Venetian and Slavic dialects. At the end of the fifteenth century Croatians became the majority in Ragusa, but never institutional language, it must be said that the republic of Ragusa for a period arrived even to prohibit the use of the Slavic languages, therefore, have been Ragusa as of Croatian culture, it is a kind of blasphemy... The Dalmatian may be the Primary Culture of Ragusa but it did not have territories, or, as the Gothic and Theodoro, it could have only Ragusa.

 

[Mr. Habba]

The problem being, of course, that Meran is not in that province. There's Bozen, but only barely. The current province is almost completely Trentino, with some scraps of Südtirol.

Well, not exactly. Meran is NOT in the province, but only by a small margin. Bozen is definitly and clearly in this province. HOWEVER, I just looked it up in-game, and the province is already called "Südtirol" with the province capital being Trent (not Meran, as I falsely remebered). Which is indeed very fucked up. Which makes me hope even more that we'll someday get a better provincial setup.

 

[.Me]

Well, not exactly. Meran is NOT in the province, but only by a small margin. Bozen is definitly and clearly in this province. HOWEVER, I just looked it up in-game, and the province is already called "Südtirol" with the province capital being Trent (not Meran, as I falsely remebered). Which is indeed very fucked up. Which makes me hope even more that we'll someday get a better provincial setup.

I think that split in two the province can be a good idea, also because Trent was in fact an indipendent state: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishopric_of_Trent