• Pre order now!

    Paradox Development Studio brings you the sequel to one of the most popular strategy games ever made! Crusader Kings III is soon upon us and you can pre order it today!


    Releasing September 1st 2020

Vityviktor

Lt. General
99 Badges
Jul 18, 2011
1.459
773
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • 500k Club
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Prison Architect
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • BATTLETECH
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44 Deluxe Edition
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Victoria 2
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Steel Division: Normand 44 - Second Wave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
Before I start, I really want to thank you for the impressing level of detail regarding pre-Roman cultures in ancient Iberia. I think this is the most complex and accurate portrayal of the region seen in a videogame.

However, there are still some issues which should be addressed. I definitely want to be helpful in all what I can.



I would like to compare this map (the latest version, I think) with these other two maps showing pre-Roman cultures in Iberia.



Let's start with the Ilergetians: They should be in the Iberic group. They would occupy an area containing Vasconian pops near the Pyrenees, but the "ruling" culture (and the one inhabiting the lower areas) should definitely be Iberic.
-I think they were mistaken with the Iacetanii, another different people (which would occupy part of the territory inhabited by the Vasconian culture, in the game map) who are believed to be actually related to the Aquitanians.

Next: the Cantabrians: it's not very clear if they were a purely Celtic people or in fact some kind of pre-Celtic Indo European culture. But, in any case, looks like the Celtic or Indo-European element would prevail, and thus, in the game they should be part of the Iberian Celtic culture group, just like the Asturians or the Vaccaeans.

-Related to this, the Autrigonians (along the Caristii and the Vardulians, not portrayed in the game) seem to be a Celtic or Celtiberian people subject to a process of Basquization by the neighbouring Vasconians centuries later.

Now we reach the most complex issue: Lusitanians and Vettonians. It's been discussed if these people were actually Celtic, or pre-Celtic Indo-European instead. This pre-Celtic (or para-Celtic) element would be present in these areas, as well as in some parts of the lands inhabited by Gallaecians and Asturians, as you can see in the maps. But I understand that they would appear as Iberian Celtic in the game, for the sake of simplicity.

-Related to this somehow, the Turdetanians, who are portrayed as Iberians, would be part of another different group, as they were the descendants of the ancient Tartessians. Again, I understand they appear in the game as part of the Iberic group.

EDIT: The same way, the Cynetes or Conii (in current Algarve, Portugal) are a mysterious people, often related to the ancient Tartessians (just like the Turdetanians). It would make sense if they stayed in the same culture group as the Turdetanians.

Now, let's see something that clearly is a mistake: the Turdulians seem to be between the Indo-European (Celtic or pre-Celtic) and the Turdetanian (Tartessian) cultures. As you can see both in the game and the maps I posted, they were split between Turduli Oppidani and Veteres (occupying the coast of current Portugal) and Baetici Turduli, in the south. In any case, seems that they used a Indo-European language, and be relatively close to their neighbouring Lusitanians.
My suggestions: Put them in the Iberian Celtic group. There's no need of creating two or three different Turdulian cultures, but I think the Celtic element should prevail over the "Iberian" (in game terms). There shouldn't be any kind of Iberian cultures in the Atlantic Coast, except for the Turdetanians (also, regarding the simplification of Turdetanian/Tartessian culture grouping I said before).

I think that' all. I really hope my suggestions could be helpful in any future changes. :)

TL;DR: Move Cantabrian, Autrigonian and Turdulian cultures to the Iberian Celtic group; move Ilergetian culture to the Iberic group.

Sources:
EDIT: This is how I think the culture map in Iberia should look (from my "Accurate Iberia" mod).

Culturas.png
 
Last edited:
  • 1Like
Reactions: Palpatine34

Vityviktor

Lt. General
99 Badges
Jul 18, 2011
1.459
773
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • 500k Club
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Prison Architect
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • BATTLETECH
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44 Deluxe Edition
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Victoria 2
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Steel Division: Normand 44 - Second Wave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
I would like to add religion to this informative post. As seen in this video, these are the religions in Iberia:

upload_2019-3-29_17-18-26.png

We see most of the Celtic Iberian peoples are Druidic, just as their cousins outside the Peninsula. We can also see the Iberic religion was given to some of the pre-Indoeuropean peoples like the Vascones, but not the Aquitanians. Cantabrians, and other peoples in northern Iberia (wrongly portrayed as pre-Indoeuropean/Vasconic/Aquitanian, as I wrote in the previous post) are Iberic too.

My suggestions:

A) Limit the Iberic religion only for the proper Iberic peoples (those living in the Mediterranean coast of Iberia). Make the rest of the peoples in Northern Iberia Druidic, just like the Aquitanians.

(This way, Iberic religion would be solely identified as the religion of the Iberic peoples, in a more restrictive way.)

EDIT: I think this would be the best option.

Or...

B) Give the Iberic religion to the Aquitanians too, just like their relatives, the Vasconians. Cantabrians, Autrigonians, etc should still be Druidic for cultural reasons (again, see the previous post).

(This way, we could identify the Iberic religion as an ingame portrayal of the pre-Indoeuropean religions of pre-Indoeuropean peoples like the Aquitanians or the Vasconians. Indoeuropean peoples like the Cantabrians or Autrigonians should be Druidic this way. In any case, I don't think this option would be very accurate.)

EDIT: This is how the religion map in Iberia shoud look (from my "Accurate Iberia" mod). Also, most of the tribes have the majoritary religion as state religion (so no more "Druidic Turdetania").

Religión.png
 
Last edited:
  • 1Like
Reactions: Thor8

babuchas1

Captain
58 Badges
Dec 12, 2015
376
60
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Prison Architect
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
I totally subscribe at least the part related to the Cantabrians, which is the area I know best.
 
Jan 4, 2020
724
517
The changes in the mod are good (and Paradox should implement them in the game), but you seem to ignore the Balearic islands. @Ebusitanus has made a thread and some proposals on the cultures there (with some more ideas from the community, including our group).

In case of Tartessians, Greeks and Romans considered them more civilized than other tribes in Iberia. This should be represented in some way.
Perhaps by
- give them a different military tradition (but we can't agree which one would be better, North African, Greek or even Italic)
- have Tartessia and Turdetania start as federated tribes instead of settled tribes.
 
Last edited:
  • 1
Reactions: Efimer

Vityviktor

Lt. General
99 Badges
Jul 18, 2011
1.459
773
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • 500k Club
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Prison Architect
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • BATTLETECH
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44 Deluxe Edition
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Victoria 2
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Steel Division: Normand 44 - Second Wave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
The changes in the mod are good (and Paradox should implement them in the game), but you seem to ignore the Balearic islands. @Ebusitanus has made a tread and some proposals on the cultures there (with some more ideas from the community, including our group).

In case of Tartessians, Greeks and Romans considered them more civilized than other tribes in Iberia. This should be represented in some way.
Perhaps by
- give them a different military tradition (but we can't agree which one would be better, North African, Greek or even Italic)
- have Tartessia and Turdetania start as federated tribes instead of settled tribes.
I'm afraid that changing miliary traditions and governments currently surpasses my humble modding abbilities, lol. I also tried to expand and/or ad some new heritages in Iberia, and failed miserabily. I need to learn how to do it.
 
Jan 4, 2020
724
517
I'm afraid that changing miliary traditions and governments currently surpasses my humble modding abbilities, lol. I also tried to expand and/or ad some new heritages in Iberia, and failed miserabily. I need to learn how to do it.
Well, modding can be diffciult, and nobody is my group is good at it. That's why we started making suggestions on this forum. it's more important to get the devs to implement it (in the base game).
 
Last edited: