About 1.35 Emperor of China Celestial Reform mandate cost

[Limyx826]

I initially post this in the dev diary that talks about balance changes, but that dev diary is flooded with ramparts changes replies which is understandable as that decision really takes away the usefulness of ramparts.

Back to the point, I felt like passing a Celestial Reform will have a crippling effect if a single reform cost 80 mandate. Before 1.35 you will end up with less than 30 mandate when you pass one, but in 1.35 you will have less than 20 mandate which translates to -30 Goods Produced modifier, +30 Fire damages received, +30 Shock damages received, +3 National unrest, -30% Mercenary manpower and -30% National Manpower and the effects increased as mandate gets lower.

Now in 1.35 there are like over 10 new reforms as well so there is more period of time of less mandate after passing a Celestial Reform. I believe players would be most likely to pass a reform when the mandate is at or near 100, but due to the mandate cap so after the reform you will end up with 20 mandate or less in 1.35 if your mandate is not at 100. Even the mandate gain has increased, that doesn't change the fact that you end up with less than 20 mandate initially.

Not to mention the China events that target the Emperor of China at low mandate.
Here's the events that happen when less than 50 mandate:
china_events.55, china_events.38, china_events.45, china_events.46, china_events.48, china_events.49, china_events.52, china_events.53, china_events.56, and china_events.59.
Here's the events that happen when less than 21 mandate:
china_events.47, china_events.50, china_events.51, china_events.54, china_events.57, china_events.58, and china_events.60.

I hope the devs will take a look at those events especially those that happen when less than 21 mandate to balance out the new changes otherwise it will be too penalise the players going for max reforms.
By now I believe the code might be freezed, I hope those balance changes can happen in a hotfix after release.

 

[HypnoSkales]

Just don't fight wars while at low mandate lol

anyways, i like a good challenge to playing such a powerful nation as EoC

 

[Limyx826]

Just don't fight wars while at low mandate lol

anyways, i like a good challenge to playing such a powerful nation as EoC

Well, that's the goto strategy when playing as EoC. I think increased cost is fine by 5 to 75 mandate still strike a balance between bad effects and quick recovery but below 20 mandate have some quite nasty events.

 

[Limyx826]

Might be off topic but I think China is quite misrepresent in game with some events some tags in completely wrong region or wrong culture.

 

[Lykus Cerebros]

Might be off topic but I think China is quite misrepresent in game with some events some tags in completely wrong region or wrong culture.

Well yeah. The game in effect is built for European countries. The further a country or area deviates from that standard the less realistic (or even working without massive changes).

This gets expecially problematic with China. Because is just doesn't work with the current system and I don't see a possibility for it to work without massive changes for just this one tag.

Let me try to summarise what I mean:

1. The game is about expansion. This can be done through three ways.
Conquest / war
Mong China didn't expand much in the time period. They are also the about biggest kid on the block. In the hand of a player without massive penalties (which kind of feel artificial in my opinion) there is no one challenging you.
Colonisation
Again China didn't do that externally. Sure it works probably the best.
Diplomacy
Diplo Vassalizing or PUing. Works partly since PUs are tied to Christians.

2. Their size is to big. There is no challenge to them. As they should be they are the biggest guy around. You can do whatever you want and rarely get in trouble (see warfare). What is the point of you are already on the top? Any of the other great powers could get on trouble if they get targeted by 2 or more others. For Ming there is no one around and even tjem their starting development is almost as much as the next 4 combined.
The game lives by you having to manage limted resources (e.g. manpower, money). China has most in abundance. Someone made a post a while back explaining their colonial nations are expanding very fast, because he is supporting every one with +10 ducats. That's only really possible from the start with Ming? How are you supposed to balance that against someone like Norway who makes maybe 20 ducats overall.

3. Special mechanics
China was special. So to do them justice they would need a completely unique internal mechanics that create an entirely new way of playing the game. I really don't see that worthwhile for one tag. The other possibility that often gets suggested is doing events and minor changes (lime we have now). Events are interesting in limited amounts, but they take you away from playing the game. The game takes place on the world map and anything that interrupts that flow and tales you away should be limited. Because why do you play this game then over something else.

Edit:
TLDR: China can't really be represented accurately because its historic situation goes against the core concept of the game.

 

[FishieFan]

Might be off topic but I think China is quite misrepresent in game with some events some tags in completely wrong region or wrong culture.

Which tags, cultures, and religions are wrong in your view

 

[Limyx826]

Which tags, cultures, and religions are wrong in your view

I was working on the suggestion on Shun and Xi rebellion that I found out in current game files their predefined capitals are wrong. Xi is the worst I think where historically it is at sichuan region rather then south china region in game.

Also what's up with Yunan protectrate event, Ming never established any of sort in real life and in fact Yunan is one of last holdout of Ming remnants against Qing. But in terms of gameplay I understand why the devs do so. Historically that region is later ceded to one of the non-royal kings, Wu Sangui who help Qing defeat the Southern Ming. Cause in game 1.34 Qing mission allows Qing to makes three warlords in the south, Dali, Yue and Wu into march which in turns change Dali into Zhou which is historically accurate.

 

[Vapiritapiri]

Will the new mandate reform stuff be free in the next patch?

 

[Guardian54]

Someone made a post a while back explaining their colonial nations are expanding very fast, because he is supporting every one with +10 ducats.

I think you are talking about me, as a 99% Ming player who always gives his colonial nations at least +10 to +12 ducats per month so they will go out and colonize on their own.

 

[Abnormalmind]

l watched a streamer start as Ottomans and became EoC in less then 20 years with all of China conquered. Save scumming for specific pulse events. It was insane.

Edit: And he save scummed for mandate pulses, so he had 6(?) of the reforms.

 

[Limyx826]

l watched a streamer start as Ottomans and became EoC in less then 20 years with all of China conquered. Save scumming for specific pulse events. It was insane.

Edit: And he save scummed for mandate pulses, so he had 6(?) of the reforms.

Wow that method really depends on rng, must have been quite a lot of save scumming.


Depending on rng to boost the mandate is not what an ordinary player would do. In next patch with all the changes, I hope it will be more fun to play rather than be penalise for doing what the game expects you to do. Doing challenges is one thing, playing as casual player is another. I really hope that the devs will not based their balance changes around what some crazy skillful player can pulled off and nerf the thing.

 

[zhangjim]

Which tags, cultures, and religions are wrong in your view

For example, the event "Empress Dowager Xiaozhuang" is an extremely ridiculous mistake in historical knowledge.
This empress is a Mongolian from the Borjigin（mongolian）/Borjigit（Manchu language） family，her personal name is "Bumubutai".
But in the game, her name is called "Aisin Gioro Xiaozhuang".
Xiaozhuang is her posthumous title after her death，this is an evaluation of her life, which means solemnity and self restraint. It's important that no one gets this title while alive.

The Ming Dynasty in the game sometimes triggers this event，this led to the replacement of the ruling family of the Ming Dynasty by Aisin Gioro. Chinese players mock this strange phenomenon and call it the peaceful evolution of the Aisin Gioro family.

 

[KAOLAWANSUI]

Well yeah. The game in effect is built for European countries. The further a country or area deviates from that standard the less realistic (or even working without massive changes).

This gets expecially problematic with China. Because is just doesn't work with the current system and I don't see a possibility for it to work without massive changes for just this one tag.

Let me try to summarise what I mean:

1. The game is about expansion. This can be done through three ways.
Conquest / war
Mong China didn't expand much in the time period. They are also the about biggest kid on the block. In the hand of a player without massive penalties (which kind of feel artificial in my opinion) there is no one challenging you.
Colonisation
Again China didn't do that externally. Sure it works probably the best.
Diplomacy
Diplo Vassalizing or PUing. Works partly since PUs are tied to Christians.

2. Their size is to big. There is no challenge to them. As they should be they are the biggest guy around. You can do whatever you want and rarely get in trouble (see warfare). What is the point of you are already on the top? Any of the other great powers could get on trouble if they get targeted by 2 or more others. For Ming there is no one around and even tjem their starting development is almost as much as the next 4 combined.
The game lives by you having to manage limted resources (e.g. manpower, money). China has most in abundance. Someone made a post a while back explaining their colonial nations are expanding very fast, because he is supporting every one with +10 ducats. That's only really possible from the start with Ming? How are you supposed to balance that against someone like Norway who makes maybe 20 ducats overall.

3. Special mechanics
China was special. So to do them justice they would need a completely unique internal mechanics that create an entirely new way of playing the game. I really don't see that worthwhile for one tag. The other possibility that often gets suggested is doing events and minor changes (lime we have now). Events are interesting in limited amounts, but they take you away from playing the game. The game takes place on the world map and anything that interrupts that flow and tales you away should be limited. Because why do you play this game then over something else.

Edit:
TLDR: China can't really be represented accurately because its historic situation goes against the core concept of the game.

In Southeast Asia, where the Ming Dynasty had real influence, there was not a single mission or event. In order to prevent the Ming Dynasty from interfering in India, Myanmar did not pay tribute at all, but colonized the Americas.

 

[KAOLAWANSUI]

I was working on the suggestion on Shun and Xi rebellion that I found out in current game files their predefined capitals are wrong. Xi is the worst I think where historically it is at sichuan region rather then south china region in game.

Also what's up with Yunan protectrate event, Ming never established any of sort in real life and in fact Yunan is one of last holdout of Ming remnants against Qing. But in terms of gameplay I understand why the devs do so. Historically that region is later ceded to one of the non-royal kings, Wu Sangui who help Qing defeat the Southern Ming. Cause in game 1.34 Qing mission allows Qing to makes three warlords in the south, Dali, Yue and Wu into march which in turns change Dali into Zhou which is historically accurate.

I recommend Li Zicheng and Zhang Xianzhong's Wikipedia, which is more detailed than Dashun and Daxi's.

 

[Kurfürstin Adelheid]

I mean reforming such a system should be destabilising, when you consider the philosophy behind it and the fact you are trying to reform a really quite conservative system that has been around for over a thousand years...

 

[Me_]

I think this is deliberate and the point is to have these events trigger from time to time.

 

[Limyx826]

Will the new mandate reform stuff be free in the next patch?

According to the patch note, yes.

 

[薇羽Sama]

I was working on the suggestion on Shun and Xi rebellion that I found out in current game files their predefined capitals are wrong. Xi is the worst I think where historically it is at sichuan region rather then south china region in game.

Also what's up with Yunan protectrate event, Ming never established any of sort in real life and in fact Yunan is one of last holdout of Ming remnants against Qing. But in terms of gameplay I understand why the devs do so. Historically that region is later ceded to one of the non-royal kings, Wu Sangui who help Qing defeat the Southern Ming. Cause in game 1.34 Qing mission allows Qing to makes three warlords in the south, Dali, Yue and Wu into march which in turns change Dali into Zhou which is historically accurate.

yes,Yunnan event should also content Xi