Abolition of slavery

[Freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeedom!]

Anybody else find that this one clickable decision for a big issue is a bit lack luster? Given the social and economic upheaval it would cause, and the fact that a certain historically significant nation fought a civil war over this (in part, or wholly, depending on which side you ask), doesn't it seem a bit odd that once click and a few national modifiers is all that's involved?

At the very least there should be unrest in the provinces that produced slavery when they lose it as a provincial resource.

 

[Bouchart]

Did any country even formally abolish slavery during this time frame? Probably not until the very end of the game's time frame I don't believe the British did until the 1830s.

A lot of the slave trade naturally died out as the new world was settled. The US Civil War was about slavery as an institution, not about the importing of slaves, which had become illegal in 1808 or so I believe.

I've never taken the decision myself...just not interesting.

Edit: Just noticed your username.

 

[ecrurudesby]

I'd sure be open to the idea of expanding on the abolition (in fact the decision is so lackluster I think it's a good idea), but I'm not sure it makes sense to increase unrest in slave producing provinces. The current system doesn't reflect history very well in regards the trans-Atlantic slave trade, because most slaves were sold by other Africans to the Europeans after losing a war or as punishment. I think European owned provinces in Africa should still produce slaves in game, but there could be some sort of interaction with local African states such as increased tax for Africans and increased production for European owned provinces in Africa.

As for the abolition itself, in the provices I think the simple changing of trade good will suffice. The effects should mostly affect the Americas as that was where the slaves were exported to. Perhaps a production decrease in exchange for a manpower increase to represent the slaves "freedom" in the Americas.

 

[Martynios]

Thread title: Abolition of slavery
Author: Freeeeedom!

I lol'd

 

[durbal]

It's a Swedish thing.

 

[net.split]

It's complicated. A European nation serving as middle-man between Africa and the Americas would really have little beyond economic consequences for the decision, which is basically what's represented in-game.

The Americas (colonial nations, crown colonies, and independent former CNs) are another story. Provinces that produce goods that fall under the Plantation manufactory would see a notable drop in Goods Produced and an uptick in unrest. But, at least under historical setups, CNs don't have any slave-producing provinces.

The Americas perspective has been essentially ignored by the game because at least for the USA it falls in the Victoria timeline, beyond EU4's end date. It could be interesting to see something added for this I suppose, but I'm not sure how generally relevant it would be in most games. If you're playing in 1750, you probably aren't playing a historically-sized colonial state or anything of the sort.

 

[LordPavel]

Did any country even formally abolish slavery during this time frame?

France abolish BEFORE this time frame (3 jully 1315 = no slave in France).
And during EUIV time frame, yes, totally.
- 8 january 1455 = pope allow slavery.
- 2 june 1537 = pope abollish slavery for American indians.
- 1760-1890 for France = talk and abolistion for everybody.
- 1803 for England = end of new slaves.
- 1810 for Portugal.

The slavery is almost not in the game, and that can be a huge change for mid-late game. We can make America a great land for raise and make slave directly here. We can make Australia a land of indian (of India) slaves and not open jail ! So much anwsome !

And here, we talk only about European slavery. There is the Crimea slavery (Russians slaves 1430-1783), Algeria-Tunisan-Marocan slavery (white and black slaves), Ottomans slavery (whithes slaves).
And the African country hunting/raids others Africans for sell to Europeans can be a huge improvement for African nations (= income and improvement of relation with Europeans if you raids yours neighbours or bonus for fight if you decide to fuck the Europeans ?).

 

[3ishop]

It's complicated. A European nation serving as middle-man between Africa and the Americas would really have little beyond economic consequences for the decision, which is basically what's represented in-game.

The Americas (colonial nations, crown colonies, and independent former CNs) are another story. Provinces that produce goods that fall under the Plantation manufactory would see a notable drop in Goods Produced and an uptick in unrest. But, at least under historical setups, CNs don't have any slave-producing provinces.

Also never made sense that it caused the price of slaves to drop, should do the opposite. One less nation selling them, not less using them. Also shouldn't it increase the cost of the goods that used them? Costs more to produce. The economic cost is rather small when you look at the cost the Brits paid for stopping it. At the time raised £20 million (£2.020 billion in 2016 pounds) as compensation.

There's also issues like first they banned the sale of slaves from Africa but didn't ban having slaves.

 

[A_Dane]

Denmark-Norway technically outlawed slave trade in 1790 or something (only taking effect in 1803 though) - though it wasn't an outright ban on owning slaves, but seems to be just about what this event is about.

 

[Dnote]

Depends what you want to represent, it is after all, just a trade good in EUIV, not integrated into any other systems. Many countries in the time frame and before had banned slavery within their borders, but did not abolish the trade of slaves beyond their borders until later.

For example, in England slavery contradicted other laws during the time period that allowed the courts to rule to emancipate slaves within the home nation (this dates back to 1215 and the Magna Carta), but it wasn't until 1807 that a law was passed banning the trade of slaves within the Empire.

 

[Ketilsen]

Semi-off topic fun fact: Technically, the UK didn't abolish slavery until (I believe) 2010. Various specific forms of slavery were banned way back, but until 2010 it was technically legal for one human to own another.

 

[fred.erick]

Anybody else find that this one clickable decision for a big issue is a bit lack luster? Given the social and economic upheaval it would cause, and the fact that a certain historically significant nation fought a civil war over this (in part, or wholly, depending on which side you ask), doesn't it seem a bit odd that once click and a few national modifiers is all that's involved?

At the very least there should be unrest in the provinces that produced slavery when they lose it as a provincial resource.

I fear adding more negative results would make this decision even less appealing.
I click the button for roleplay purposes only.
Having some related events though, could make it more interesting & engaging. Not just a bland unrest but event related unrest, with maybe some potential conflict.

 

[Dnote]

Semi-off topic fun fact: Technically, the UK didn't abolish slavery until (I believe) 2010. Various specific forms of slavery were banned way back, but until 2010 it was technically legal for one human to own another.

Hence my choice of words, as technically even now the UK doesn't have a specific law against slavery (other than the trade), rather laws around the possible situations where someone could be considered a slave. The most recent law in 2009 was in relation to forced labor, one situation where the person could be considered a slave.

But from before EUIV's time period they are recorded cases of slaves gaining their freedom in England through rulings based on common law (note this is just mainland England, over seas territories and other parts of the British Isles were different).

 

[Duke of Kent]

In the colonies, and especially in Latin America, slave uprisings were extremely common during the last few decades of the game. The most famous example was the Republic of Haiti (established in 1804). Perhaps if there were events that simulated slave uprisings (maybe even depending on how many slave producing provinces the nation has?) as well as increased penalties for abolishing slavery, then it would be an actuall decision for the player to make.


What do you think?

 

[fred.erick]

In the colonies, and especially in Latin America, slave uprisings were extremely common during the last few decades of the game. The most famous example was the Republic of Haiti (established in 1804). Perhaps if there were events that simulated slave uprisings (maybe even depending on how many slave producing provinces the nation has?) as well as increased penalties for abolishing slavery, then it would be an actuall decision for the player to make.


What do you think?

Could be interesting. Might be possible to incorporate into the rebels / unrest systems?

 

[Fintilgin]

I'd like to see slavery in EUIV enhanced and given some unique subystems simply because it was so important in parts of the New World and such a major thing.

But the real, secret reason I want this is so that I can take innovative or humanist every game and get a special CB to go $*@# up all the slavers.

 

[Alpacayak]

In the colonies, and especially in Latin America, slave uprisings were extremely common during the last few decades of the game. The most famous example was the Republic of Haiti (established in 1804). Perhaps if there were events that simulated slave uprisings (maybe even depending on how many slave producing provinces the nation has?) as well as increased penalties for abolishing slavery, then it would be an actuall decision for the player to make.


What do you think?

I've actually been tempted to ask for this for a while now. I see Haiti spawning so terribly rarely in-game and the current decision to form it is too bland anyway, not to mention it doesn't even have a national ideas set. It's a really unique nation historywise and one can only wonder what would have happened had it not crashed and burned so soon. A dynamic slave uprising system with the possibility of the slaves forming one(or more) breakaway states would be really cool, too bad it would only come to play near the end of the campaign and nobody bothers with the late game, it was a really interesting period for the new world.

 

[3ishop]

In the colonies, and especially in Latin America, slave uprisings were extremely common during the last few decades of the game. The most famous example was the Republic of Haiti (established in 1804). Perhaps if there were events that simulated slave uprisings (maybe even depending on how many slave producing provinces the nation has?) as well as increased penalties for abolishing slavery, then it would be an actuall decision for the player to make.


What do you think?

Haiti had the advantage of the controllers being in wars and getting support from multiple nations and factions. So is rather represented by support independance. It could probably use a unique government option though, personally most of the colonial nations could have a range of governments that could form.

Wont work, they never own slave producing provinces. They are a new world only power and never seem to get land in Africa where the slave provinces are.

 

[ZomgK3tchup]

Fleshed out slavery mechanics would be nice, especially related to the abolition of it, but I can't imagine it getting much attention for being so late in the game.

Semi-off topic fun fact: Technically, the UK didn't abolish slavery until (I believe) 2010. Various specific forms of slavery were banned way back, but until 2010 it was technically legal for one human to own another.

Isn't there some international law that forbids slavery? IIRC, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights isn't legally binding, but there has to be some treaty out there that forbids slavery.