Abolish Diplo Annexing

[stnylan]

Originally posted by Judge
Stnylan

Obviously we have different opinions on what we would like the game to be. As I said earlier I oppose all features that makes it resemble civ.

As for AI DA I don’t have the same experience as you. In my games the AI DA a lot, and not only one or two provinces minors. Maybe this has something to do with the fact that I in most cases play with the settings “very hard” and “furious”.

Human DA is certainly voluntarily and I seldom use DA myself but I don´t think this is relevant in this discussion. I am proposing some modifications that I find would improve the game generally speaking and that the average player certainly could live with. If there are exploits or other unrealistic features in the game and you have Johan and his staff that obviously listen to the players and are willing to change imperfections why should you not bring this up? If someone finds the game too hard I like to remind you that there are different settings.

As you say, our experiences are different. I usually play the game on VH, but on coward or weakling as recommended for MKJ AI. I play on VH to make the BB limit important.

Is DA an exploit? I don't think so. Certainly using a colonial border to DA is an exploit but that is a different matter.

I do think though that Johan and his team need to consider the whole community (which I know they do). However, as part of that community he/they won't know what I think unless I post in a relevant place, like here for this debate

It comes perhaps from a difference of opinion - I don't think changes are really necessary to DA. As you say, furious settings might have something to do with it, or maybe just luck.


Dagfinn - I have never seen the AI go on a DA galore. Does the AI always try to expand? Yes. Of course they do. I do not expect a game like EU2 to replicate the precise nature of 400 years of history. I expect it to replicate the feel of that history, and the game does that. Finally, the AI needs all the help it can get if anything alot of people say here is to go by. If the AI gains power through DA all power to it.

 

[Judge]

Well maybe I was a bit unclear but I do not think DA is an exploit but it is too favourable as it is featured today. Since the original version there have been a lot of changes but AFAIK there have not been any major changes made as for DA.

Therefore this feature has become increasingly more favourable compared to MA. This will result in a game that could be unbalanced. If you change other features making them harder for the human player you have to do something about DA as well. That is my humble point

 

[Stefanos]

Let's start with the easy ones

Military access: Time limits are a great idea. The suggestion of naval access vs land access is good as well.

Diploannexations: Are too easy. my personal opinion is that they should require all the conditions they currently do, but the option to DA should be triggered by an event. After all, most of the historical DAs happened after the death of the vassal monarch, which is something almost completely beyond the liegelord's control. I do *not* want the EU1 system, which was even more silly, but the event trigger should make it happen less often.

[and yes, I know Paradox said "no more events." Doesn't keep me from my opinion.

 

[unmerged(5314)]

Having recently failed 17,000,000 times to vassalize Portugal with a globe-spanning England, I am reinforced in my opinion that there's nothing wrong with DA as it is. Tweaks in this direction would IMO benefit those players who can't stop themselves from exploiting the current setup, and be detrimental to the majority of players who can, - especially new players. Certainly Johan has shown unbelievable decency and dedication in patching the game while tweaking it to the tastes of its fans, but I feel his goodwill is being ridden on a little too far in threads of this sort (the author shouldn't take offense as it has nothing to do with him). I would certainly support an improvement of the current system for a possible EUIII, but I believe I am not alone in thinking "let's leave well enough alone, learn the final volume of rules and regulations for EU 1.06 and just play it, can we?"

 

[Dagfinn]

Originally posted by Stefanos
[and yes, I know Paradox said "no more events." Doesn't keep me from my opinion.

Rest asured that someone will pop up and tell you anyway...

 

[Dagfinn]

Originally posted by stnylan
Dagfinn - I have never seen the AI go on a DA galore. Does the AI always try to expand? Yes. Of course they do. I do not expect a game like EU2 to replicate the precise nature of 400 years of history. I expect it to replicate the feel of that history, and the game does that. Finally, the AI needs all the help it can get if anything alot of people say here is to go by. If the AI gains power through DA all power to it.

I beg to differ.

-Maybe the reason that I often se AI expantion galore is that I do not go rampant myself?

-A powerfull united France by 1500, and a more or less united Germany before 1600 DOES NOt GIVE me a historical fell.

-IMHO the main problem is that all the patches have been geared towards containing humane players that is on a "expanding galore" path. Introduction of BB is a clear exampel of this. In a game played by a "historical tweaker" like me its often an ai plaier that is the BB. This have all sorts of IMHO negative sideffects.

I'v said it before and I'l say it again:

I never said your way to play was wrong, I just want to have the OPPORTUNITY to play it my way.

 

[Zagys]

I don't think that diplo-annexation should be removed entirely, but it needs to be made far more difficult. I wonder why Johan hasn't fixed it yet. Time is running out; the 1.06b beta is almost over, and I don't think there will be a 1.07.

 

[Judge]

Originally posted by Alva
Certainly Johan has shown unbelievable decency and dedication in patching the game while tweaking it to the tastes of its fans, but I feel his goodwill is being ridden on a little too far in threads of this sort (the author shouldn't take offense as it has nothing to do with him). I would certainly support an improvement of the current system for a possible EUIII, but I believe I am not alone in thinking "let's leave well enough alone, learn the final volume of rules and regulations for EU 1.06 and just play it, can we?"

I am very grateful for all patches and changes that already have been done and I was merely suggesting a couple of other changes that in my opinion would improve the game. I fully understand if the guys at Paradox do not change or modify any more features in the game but if the do then these changes would be great. Besides, this is a forum and one of the purposes is surely to have a debate on game issues regardless if they are being implemented into the game now, later or never. Without feed back many of the great changes we have seen recently would never have been implemented you know.

 

[Languish]

Originally posted by Zagys
I don't think that diplo-annexation should be removed entirely, but it needs to be made far more difficult. I wonder why Johan hasn't fixed it yet. Time is running out; the 1.06b beta is almost over, and I don't think there will be a 1.07.

Probably because it isnt technically broken. I agree that it should be made harder though... but not by much.

 

[Dagfinn]

Originally posted by Alva
Having recently failed 17,000,000 times to vassalize Portugal with a globe-spanning England, I am reinforced in my opinion that there's nothing wrong with DA as it is. Tweaks in this direction would IMO benefit those players who can't stop themselves from exploiting the current setup, and be detrimental to the majority of players who can, - especially new players. Certainly Johan has shown unbelievable decency and dedication in patching the game while tweaking it to the tastes of its fans, but I feel his goodwill is being ridden on a little too far in threads of this sort (the author shouldn't take offense as it has nothing to do with him). I would certainly support an improvement of the current system for a possible EUIII, but I believe I am not alone in thinking "let's leave well enough alone, learn the final volume of rules and regulations for EU 1.06 and just play it, can we?"

I have a sneaky sucpision that this partly is directed agaist me. Well in that case you are wrong. I have looooong time ago realised that DA in Paradox's eyes works perfectley as should. It is not my intention to "bully" Johan into changing DA. (Not that I think its possible )

Because I have taken quite a bit of beating on this subject before, I decided it was time to step out of the shadows again and support another writer with a similar opinion. Please remark that I very early stated that: "..., and I'm also very well aware that Paradox more or less is happy about the way DA works."

This should nevertheless mean that we should be prevented from expresing our views.

I actually think you are WAY out of line when you are accusing me/us/them of beeing out of line with Johans goodwill. No one at this thread have critisied Johan because he havent changed DA. We just discuss what we would like it to be, and hope he will notice and perhaps agree.

Why should our wishes be of lesser importance than yours? Perhaps because you does not agree with us?

 

[unmerged(5822)]

Hey, how about making it so that you can't buy, marry or ally (the diplomacy actions, not the honouring of them) your way to relations above +100?

In order to get the other country to "love" you, you'd have to earn it... (and it would really make the really good relationships something special, rather than a simple walk down to the local relations shop)

 

[unmerged(8576)]

Originally posted by Onslaught
Hey, how about making it so that you can't buy, marry or ally (the diplomacy actions, not the honouring of them) your way to relations above +100?

In order to get the other country to "love" you, you'd have to earn it... (and it would really make the really good relationships something special, rather than a simple walk down to the local relations shop)

I agree with this. Wholeheartedly.

 

[Languish]

Seems like a good idea onslaught.

 

[unmerged(14784)]

It seems to me that if any of this were to pass, it would simply "bork" things.

Instead of having peaceful games where there's an occasional diploannex and a mili annex of a diff. religion here and there, you would have Austria mili annexing all of their neighbors (Bavaria, Venice, etc.) and racking up colossal BB points. you would have Moscow mili-annexing ryazan, pksow, etc...

If you don't want to completely and totally alter the gameplay experience and transform every MP game into a BB game, let's not try to make it nearly impossible to diploannex.

 

[Languish]

Originally posted by KaiZer
It seems to me that if any of this were to pass, it would simply "bork" things.

Instead of having peaceful games where there's an occasional diploannex and a mili annex of a diff. religion here and there, you would have Austria mili annexing all of their neighbors (Bavaria, Venice, etc.) and racking up colossal BB points. you would have Moscow mili-annexing ryazan, pksow, etc...

If you don't want to completely and totally alter the gameplay experience and transform every MP game into a BB game, let's not try to make it nearly impossible to diploannex.

I guess. My only concern was "unrealisitc" diplo-annexations such as the france annexing ireland AND scotland scenario that cropped up recently. For me that seemed silly.

 

[Dagfinn]

Originally posted by KaiZer
It seems to me that if any of this were to pass, it would simply "bork" things.

Instead of having peaceful games where there's an occasional diploannex and a mili annex of a diff. religion here and there, you would have Austria mili annexing all of their neighbors (Bavaria, Venice, etc.) and racking up colossal BB points. you would have Moscow mili-annexing ryazan, pksow, etc...

If you don't want to completely and totally alter the gameplay experience and transform every MP game into a BB game, let's not try to make it nearly impossible to diploannex.

So basically you think expanding galore with DA is ok, but expanding military is bad?

I respect that, but its not my kind of game. I do not like expanding galore either way.

 

[Timur Lang]

I agree with some modification on the diplo-annexation. In my game with the 1.06b beta 4 in 1550 France (AI controlled) already have their current territory + diplo-annexation of Milan, Modena, Tuscany, Siena, Helvetia and Eire (Napoleon's ambition accomplished 200 years back ). I am playing with Austria and I have diplo-annex Bavaria, Wurttemberg, Baden, Wurzburg, Mainz, Palatinat, Hessen, Kleves and Cologne.

 

[unmerged(2695)]

An accurate historical simulation of Contental European politics in the EU period would be a dreadful bore. Most of the action occurred at the fringes of Europe. The internal wars ended in status qou ante (like the 30-years war).

Diplo-annexing is as legitimate as conquest - and should be just as costly.

 

[Dagfinn]

Originally posted by Hardu
An accurate historical simulation of Contental European politics

Who said anything about that

Now we are heading back to the history book argument again...

What some people in this thread wants and discuss in a civil way, is to tone it down/make it imensley difficult. Actualy, several people happen to agree that DA is to easy as is. Jeeze, we're more or less heretic, arent we

 

[unmerged(12740)]

Originally posted by Dagfinn
Who said anything about that

Now we are heading back to the history book argument again...

What some people in this thread wants and discuss in a civil way, is to tone it down/make it imensley difficult. Actualy, several people happen to agree that DA is to easy as is. Jeeze, we're more or less heretic, arent we

yikes, everything seems to be civil so far. no reason to be irritable.

iirc, you originally stated that diplo-annexation was ahistorical &, i think, several, such as myself, have argued that this is not the case -- there are plenty of examples of diplo-annexation in the time-period covered.

i think that there have been some good suggestions in this thread. esp. the idea that you shld get good relations bonuses for honoring your alliances &, i'd add, if it is at all possible from a programming point of view, if you save someone's ass from being annexed or otherwise totally destroyed. (probably impossible or immensely difficult the last part though.)

i don't think anyone feels as if you shldn't be able to play the game w/ the option of playing it w/ it being harder to diplo-annex. i think, but i'm just guessing, that maybe some folks are worried that johan will start to feel a little overwhelmed/overtaxed by all the requests folks like myself are making of him. that's all.

i think one of the nice things in this forum is that heretics appear to be welcome.