Abolish Diplo Annexing

[Judge]

Timur: At least some modifications should be made.

Stnylan

Obviously we have different opinions on what we would like the game to be. As I said earlier I oppose all features that makes it resemble civ.

As for AI DA I don’t have the same experience as you. In my games the AI DA a lot, and not only one or two provinces minors. Maybe this has something to do with the fact that I in most cases play with the settings “very hard” and “furious”.

Human DA is certainly voluntarily and I seldom use DA myself but I don´t think this is relevant in this discussion. I am proposing some modifications that I find would improve the game generally speaking and that the average player certainly could live with. If there are exploits or other unrealistic features in the game and you have Johan and his staff that obviously listen to the players and are willing to change imperfections why should you not bring this up? If someone finds the game too hard I like to remind you that there are different settings.

 

[unmerged(14784)]

Originally posted by Dagfinn
A good idea.

Special cases can be solved with events...

You must be new, so I'll just point out something the P'doxers always say...

"No New Events."

In other words, the Culture-izing would ban any non-culture annexation unless it were militarily done.

 

[Thanak]

Maybe something like this

If to country was diplo vassalised = you can diplo annex it latter

If a country was military vassalised = they hold a grunge and won't accept annexation.

 

[Dagfinn]

Originally posted by KaiZer
You must be new, so I'll just point out something the P'doxers always say...

"No New Events."

He, he, no I'm not new... I'm well aware about that, and I'm also wery well aware that Paradox more or less is happy about the way DA works.

In other words, the Culture-izing would ban any non-culture annexation unless it were militarily done.

And if you ask me that would be just fine... But thats me...

Anyway, yes I see your point...

 

[Languish]

diplo-annexation with the culture rule would not be an event, thats the whole point... although i dont see it happening, its good to brainstorm like this.

 

[Dagfinn]

Originally posted by stnylan
I think there is a danger with the game becoming too straight-jacketed to history. Diploannexing is a fun way to play what if? Since the AI rarely uses it except for small 1-2 provinces states (in my experience anyway) it becomes a matter of player restraint.

Also, the occasional AI diplo-annex is one thing that makes it interesting. Making it much harder will probably eliminate all AI diplo-annexes and that would be a bad thing IMO.

Occasional? Jeez, IMNSHO EU2 ai uses DA galore...

IAs for human players - they don't have to diplo-annex. It's a case of self-restraint, and not to put too fine a point on it, if some people can't restrain themselves it is not the fault of the rest of us who are simply not as good at playing the game. And we should not get penalised because of that.

I totaly agree as I NEVER diploannex myself.

And then you get to the bottom of mine EU2 grudge. If I wanna play as a "historical tweaker" instead of as a "expanding galor" I will be dissapointed because the ai is always in a "expanding galore" modus.

Yes I know I will get the usual remarks that I should head off and read a history book, but I couldnt help myself...

 

[Dagfinn]

Originally posted by Languish
diplo-annexation with the culture rule would not be an event, thats the whole point... although i dont see it happening, its good to brainstorm like this.

You missed his point. He is concernaed about ex. Russian DA of Georgia...

And he has got a point...

 

[Dagfinn]

IMHO the DA of same culture only, wont work to mine total satisfaction either...

You will still have the problem with the German minors going rampant with eatchother. And there will still be the problem with an earley strong France.

Btw, I have always wondered why France/German ai is so damn good at expanding, while the Russian sucks...

 

[Filou]

Originally posted by Lucius Sulla
My own oppinion for diploannex:

- You can only diploannex countries with less than 1/3rd size of yours.
- You can only diploannex countries who share main culture with yours.
- Diploannex should have been made harder, the waiting time for it longer (20 to 30 years as it has been mentioned).

I agree with these except for the main culture part, and I would even push for 30 years.
Culture should not play a role though.
Yes I did see England DA Portugal in a late game, after they became vassal through event... not too historical.
But then again, that's what I like from the game: Sruprises

And I mean, what's so wrong with someone that sets himself a goal to unite the Arab world diplomatically with the Ottomans (except for those shiites of course)

 

[unmerged(12905)]

Good heavens why does everyone try to suck the fun out of this game by trying to remove every feature in it or make it impossibly hard to get anything done.

I love the sense of acheivment when i've worked hard on a nation and finally convince them to join me...and then exploring their territories and seeing what my new options are!

If you want a game that fits history down to the finest detail then get yourself down to the library, read loads of books, write all the historical events down and act it out in your head!

 

[SJG]

I think the main problem is that it is too easy to get good relations with a vassal. As it is, getting to +200 with a vassal is so easy it really doesn't apply as a condition. You could leave a vassal at -100 relations for 20 years and then get it up to +200 within a year, maybe a bit more. If it was a challenge to keep good relations with countries it might be a bit more realistic.

With regards to sizes I don't think there should be any size limit on the countries you can diplo-annex, it should just be alot less likely that they'll accept or require a greater length of vassalage before they'll even think about it.

 

[Dagfinn]

Originally posted by Red_Terror If you want a game that fits history down to the finest detail then get yourself down to the library, read loads of books, write all the historical events down and act it out in your head! [/B]

Oh, I didnt see that one coming...

Read my lips ****head, there is a major differnce between your historybook and mine "historical tweaking"...

Boy am I tierd of that history book argument...

AND I never said your way to play was wrong, I just want to have the OPPORTUNITY to play it my way.

 

[Languish]

Originally posted by Dagfinn
Oh, I didnt see that one coming...

Ha...

 

[Dagfinn]

Originally posted by SJG
I think the main problem is that it is too easy to get good relations with a vassal. As it is, getting to +200 with a vassal is so easy it really doesn't apply as a condition. You could leave a vassal at -100 relations for 20 years and then get it up to +200 within a year, maybe a bit more. If it was a challenge to keep good relations with countries it might be a bit more realistic.

Very good point. It should be near impossible to even reatch 180+ in relation.

Hmm, that could be a possible solution actualy.

 

[unmerged(12740)]

re: culture

don't quite think this represents anything other than a conceit of the game.

did provence have french culture? they didn't speak french. they weren't descended from franks. they had their own literary tradition. none of this mattered in the time frame considered. the people didn't care who ruled as long as they thought they were legitimate & right by conquest was accepted -- it wasn't even outlawed in england, for example, until 1810, even though it is true it wasn't used much after the 14th century. as far as i'm concerned, diploannexation more or less represents the ceding of the majority of a province as feudal fiefs revert to the "king" as the line dies out. nothing ahistorical about this. "nationalism" as it is represented in the game is ahistorical, but it represents a challenge & so that's fine. how would you play a minor if you cldn't diploannex at very hard/furious? you'd be at dishonorable scum when you've conquered 10 provinces. don't have a problem w/ creating an option to get rid of this option, but don't really see the argument for the ahistorical element of it. perfectly historical -- look at the history of "the spider king."

MA shld definitely be tweaked, though.

&, as has been suggested in a number of threads, there ought to be a number of different kinds of vassalages/alliances.

 

[Derek Pullem]

I think modifying the diplomatic gain based on the state of relations is a good idea.

Maybe new change in relations = existing calc for change in relations* (220-(current diplo status))/400

So for a state gift which would generate +100 under the current rules it would generate the following at different diplo relations:

-200 = +105
-100 = +80
0 = +55
100 = +30
150 = +18
180 = +10

It's still going to be possible to diploannex but it will take many more diplomats and alot more cash

 

[Dagfinn]

Originally posted by Derek Pullem
I think modifying the diplomatic gain based on the state of relations is a good idea.

Maybe new change in relations = existing calc for change in relations* (220-(current diplo status))/400

So for a state gift which would generate +100 under the current rules it would generate the following at different diplo relations:

-200 = +105
-100 = +80
0 = +55
100 = +30
150 = +18
180 = +10

It's still going to be possible to diploannex but it will take many more diplomats and alot more cash

Very good idea, but IMHO from 180+ it should be even worse.

Now, the main problem I think is to make the ai understand this. IMNSHO ai should under this scenario NOT try to acive 180+.

 

[unmerged(2943)]

I think diplo annexation is OK, because we have seen "inheritances" in history which are basicaly forced annexations. However, I suggest that you would have to have very very strong argument for DA. If you have very capable army technicaly and in numbers you have very convincing argument. Hitler did it just 70 yrs ago.

Culture should not be of importance because you had lot of different historical examples. BTW, culture should be variable value because we had lot of assimilations in Europe, particularly in EU2 timeframe.

 

[Derek Pullem]

Well just reduce to 200 for a harder result at high relations.

At 200 the gain for a +100 state gift at diplo of 180 would be +5

Re the ai - would it stop you from trying to diploannex? Don't think so. With a vassalship and alliance the diplo isn't going to decrease so it would just take longer

 

[unmerged(4828)]

I agree that military access can be exploited and seems to last forever. One exploit that should be impossible is the way you can use explorers. When playing england i sent explorers to south america, and guess what we find spanish ports ! This way you can use military access to explore far more than you should.
Political annexation should be a bit harder, but it is fun so I would dislike if it dissapeared entirely.