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Talq

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Incapable is exactly the character trait that would Prevent you from abdicating. That's the drooling imbecile who rules for 100 years with his sonand heir as his regent... like Hoster Tully, Lord of Riverrun from Game of Thrones. Or outlives multiple generations of his heirs, like Walder Frey.

Abdication was, from what I remember from history class, generally a thinly-veiled way to legitimate usurping the throne, like king Edward II of England or Magnus IV of Sweden (both from Wikipedia). It was never really used as a voluntary diplomatic move until much later in history.

On the other hand, I know of at least one Byzantine Emperor, one Bulgarian King and one Ottoman Sultan who abdicated voluntarily (and in the latter two cases made a return when the son got into a bit of trouble). As I said some cultures... (Henry VI is of course a counter example).

And erm, Game of Thrones for all its historical inspiration is still fiction (leaving aside that nobody is contesting that old people can still rule, and Walder Frey isn't the type who would choose to abdicate).
 

grumphie

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Depended on culture. Muslims tended to live longer because of better medical knowledge (the Greeks also had this, but their average lifespan still remained low due to Byzantine intrigue and backstabbing) whereas other Europeans tended to be on the short end of the stick. Peasants were lucky to see 30, nobles were considered elderly by 50. A 90 year old King like we tend to see in CK2 would've been seen as unnatural. And probably a sorcerer.

I vote tie abdication at least partly to health, which is already an ingame stat.

NOPE.avi

the average ivespan in the middle ages wa around the 60. peasants lived longer than nobles, simply because nobles could pay for a doctor. who then proceeded to make him more sick by removing blood. muslims had better doctors ofc, but in cristian realms doctors were a quick way to death.
 

unmerged(462833)

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Problem is that people wants abdication only to make game easier. Medieval rulers didn't want to resign from the throne, they were forced to this due to situation - either they lost title or couldn't deal with specific situation (like John VI Kantakouzenos). I am not interested in abdication cause it will lead only to one result - "my rules is weak, I will do everyting so he will get the ability to abdicate". That's not the point - face Your destiny, that's more interesting than building superb big Empire. I had real fun when my old inbred maimed king (but I was proud what he did untill that moment ;) He was unlucky in a battle with muslim invasion of Byzantine) had to face revolters attacking for two of my king titles (I got 3 king titles - Serbia, Bulgaria and Taurica and all provinces in Georgia, so that's small de jure realm - but easy to handle with Elective Inheritance) and suddenly when he died his skilled but female heir (she had nice diplomacy and stewardship) had to deal with this problem. How this would look like if I could abdicate ? "Oh, ruler is weak, I can abdicate, new one is skilled so vassals will like her and I don't have to fight revolters". Honestly, we really expect this ?
 
Last edited:

Me_

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NOPE.avi

the average ivespan in the middle ages wa around the 60. peasants lived longer than nobles, simply because nobles could pay for a doctor. who then proceeded to make him more sick by removing blood. muslims had better doctors ofc, but in cristian realms doctors were a quick way to death.

What.
Are you perhaps a time traveller from 18th century spreading long-disproven theories?
 

Kyle Lionheart

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NOPE.avi

the average ivespan in the middle ages wa around the 60. peasants lived longer than nobles, simply because nobles could pay for a doctor. who then proceeded to make him more sick by removing blood. muslims had better doctors ofc, but in cristian realms doctors were a quick way to death.

From our point of view, perhaps. Just like to Doctor McCoy of the 23rd century, doctors from the 20th were butchers. They had to work with more primitive tools and knowledge, but they did their work, and in most cases, they did it well.

Back to abdication.
It should be an available choice in very particular sets of circumstances. As I see it, the king needs to:

Be:
  • Fairly old(60+)
  • Content("I've lived a good live, had a good reign, now it's time to rest and leave the politics to my heir")
  • Cynical("If I stay king, my own heir might turn against me, not to mention those other vultures of my vassals. Why the heck should I do it? I'll be living the good life anyway as a noble")
  • Stressed ("This is too much for me. I can't handle it anymore!")

Not be:
  • Incapable ("Abdicate? Huh? What are you saying son! I'm still going strong, everyone loves and respect me, and my mind works perfectly well! Now who are you again?")
  • Greedy("The throne is mine! It's my precioussss...")
  • Depressed(would rather kill himself than abdicate, same result for the heir maybe...but a different mechanic)

And possibly more conditions. This is what it came to mind right now. Even if all those conditions are matched, there must be penalties for it that don't make it a clear choice. Massive loss of Piety, maybe, because your realm is going against the mandate of God. God's appointed ruler doesn't quit! Vassals using it as an excuse for widespread rebellions, claiming the heir fooled the king into it and therefore is a traitor(unless they have really good relations with the heir). Things like that.
 

monsterfurby

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Don't forget ambitious.

Abdication should always lead to an immense crisis though, including a massive drop in crown authority as an exchange for interceding with the succession. I mean, if you're dei gratia rex somethingum - isn't it a bit disrespectful towards God to just abdicate?
 

grumphie

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What.
Are you perhaps a time traveller from 18th century spreading long-disproven theories?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloodletting

main treatment in the middle ages by so called "doctors". i.e. a german kaiser(forgot his exact name) once fell ill. a large amount of doctors were called, and they agreed: bloodletting was the best option. result? they removed over 3 litre blood, resulting in him dying oernight, while he could very easy have survived the illness by just staying in bed. often the local wise men/women were better healers instead elying on herbs and the like. far from perfect, but much better than removing blood.

as to the age, that is if you dont count child deaths. they pull the average livespan down while if you only count people of 21+ its somewhere mid 60, with noble regularry hitting 70-80 if they could avoid illness and wounds. while muslim doctors were far superiour to european ones and could heal a lot more, they were not perfect as well but enough to not kill their victims en masse.
 

toluas

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As was said before, sometimes one wishes to have this option. But historically speaking, it was so uncommon to be called ahistorical. Any ruler who steps down only to try a comeback later on, did not really abdicate, it was just some tactical move.

When we talk about true abdications, two instances come to mind (and they might well be the only ones):
Emperor Diocletian - after having installed the Tetrarchy system - abdicated and even ignored the outbreaking civil war to stay put in his villa in Salonae.
And the HR Emperor Charles V. - after having built an empire where the sun never sets - abdicated in favor of his brother (HRE) and his eldest son (Spain); he himself died a couple of years later in a spanish monastery.

@kyle lionhart: I agree with your "not be" list, but differ with your "be" list. Content and stressed I agree with, but not cynical. I don't think it has anything to do with cynicism. And age? Well, Charles V. was merely 56 when he abdicated, while Diocletian was (most probably) just 59.
 

Kyle Lionheart

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As was said before, sometimes one wishes to have this option. But historically speaking, it was so uncommon to be called ahistorical. Any ruler who steps down only to try a comeback later on, did not really abdicate, it was just some tactical move.

When we talk about true abdications, two instances come to mind (and they might well be the only ones):
Emperor Diocletian - after having installed the Tetrarchy system - abdicated and even ignored the outbreaking civil war to stay put in his villa in Salonae.
And the HR Emperor Charles V. - after having built an empire where the sun never sets - abdicated in favor of his brother (HRE) and his eldest son (Spain); he himself died a couple of years later in a spanish monastery.

@kyle lionhart: I agree with your "not be" list, but differ with your "be" list. Content and stressed I agree with, but not cynical. I don't think it has anything to do with cynicism. And age? Well, Charles V. was merely 56 when he abdicated, while Diocletian was (most probably) just 59.

It can't be ahistorical if it happened even once. And you are giving two examples yourself :D
That said, yes, it was extremely rare, and it should remain that way in the game.

As for cynical, I put it there because as a cynic, you really don't care about being honorable and fulfilling your "divine destiny" to be king until the end. All you see is that you're getting old, and your son looks at you funnily, and your young vassals don't respect you as much as they did when you were young and strong yourself.
Maybe retiring while you still can is not such a bad idea...you'll still be pampered as a noble, your son will(supposedly) love you for stepping down, and (being also content) you don't see anything wrong in living out the rest of your life in peace and quiet.

@monsterfurby. I didn't forget Ambitious...but as it's incompatible with Content, putting it in the list would be redundant ;)
 

Bob_the_Insane

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I like the idea of it being an option for a depressed ruler with a proper (same Dynasty) heir (instead of the Suicide)...

Basically your game moves to new ruler and the old King is in his court. Opening up the possibly ramifications of him getting over depression, having more kids out of your control (with Weak Claims)... Make it more of a challenging decision...

Or if you wanted to be more cruel, say you can abdicate anything except you last (lowest) title. Leaving you in the game with your Heir as King but out of your control until you actually die... :D
 

Kurospidey

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*Only read the OP*

I prefer another approach to the problem you point out. I call this problem the "longevity curse" :p and yes, is one of the most annoying things in the game (personally I can't think of any other more annoying). My approach is: let your character, as head of your dynasty, take decisions regarding your direct lineage. For example: your heir, the first son of your heir, the first son of the first son of your heir (these are three persons at most, I can't think any guy could live longer).

These decisions you can take are basically education and marriage. You still cannot decide wars, plots, ambitions, etc. for them, so you still manage one character each time. How you do this should be quite easy to implement. In the diplomatic screen when you decide marriages and education you can select anybody in your court, just add these characters like if they were in your court. This way you can follow an strategy for your dynasty. Of course, they could put modifiers... for example if your descendant has a negative opinion of you he could deny your wish.

But this thing is something Paradox should be implementing sooner than later, because it's plainly frustrating and breaks the charm of the game at some point. And also, you're telling me you, as king of Ireland want your recent baron son to marry some chick you decided it's better for your interests and he's telling you no?

P.S.: the abdicate button should be cool for some situations as in reality some rulers did it, though not very often. But it can't be the main way of strategizing your dynasty. It'd be cool if the character reaches some age and has some modifiers (like depressed), or reached some ambitions (paragon of virtue, this way he'd go to a monastery).

I hope Paradox reads this post because they should be aware it's a main problem for players. Come on Paradox, give us a solution. :p
 

n000b

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They should make an event for it, not a decision. It could be set to only fire when some of the conditions stated in this thread is met, then you should get a decision whether to abdicate or not. Same goes for suicide, but maybe in this case you shouldnt be given a choice. Decisions is a bit too easely abused for my taste.
 

Kurospidey

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Yep, two in 2000 years...;)

And those two examples never happened in medieval times, the scope of the game. I mean, abdicate it's cool but it has to be really rare. For me the main problem is not my king is imbecile or maimed, i can handle that. The problem is i can't decide the education or marriages of my grandson or great-grandson so I cannot keep with my initial strategy. It breaks the flow of the game.
 

Gingerninja

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Lets focus on IF they ever implement it. Seeing as you play characters, I would assume that you lose control over the abdicater, but he would still live. How do we make sure he does absolutely nothing? He needs some sort of trait "Abdicated" which makes him unable to be Granted land in any form and maybe some other restrictions. I'm nto sure

/discuss
 

aesthete

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Or Content and Humble perhaps?

That would work. Ramiro II of Aragon abdicated and returned to public life, and could be characterized to have such traits.

Another possibility would be to have zealous characters have the option of becoming part of the clergy if they satisfy certain conditions.