Abandoning state religion and getting schools as Qing not possible

[Jawa]

For some odd reason no one interest group ever supports getting rid of state religion as Qing and thus it is not possible to have schools either. The intelligensia just don´t care at all about this. Is this an error or wad? Is there a workaround or a mod to fix this?
Thx

 

[lilunxm12]

it's rng related, you have to wait for a Nihilist ig leader

 

[paulxiep]

It seems not a bug but a design choice. They explicitly removed anti-clerical attributes from Qing's intelligentsia.

COUNTRIES = {
c:CHI = {
ig:ig_intelligentsia = {
set_interest_group_name = ig_literati
remove_ideology = ideology_anti_clerical
}

Which's funny considering there's another thread saying to limit Qing and Japan's research with arbitrary penalty, and many were so quick to join the bandwagon despite it being so obvious they never played an unrecognized power before. They didn't know landowners and devout oppose the reforms so vehemently and that there's already a penalty to tech spread. Now your post got me digging to find that devs already made the effort to penalize Qing even further than other unrecognized nations.

btw it's not impossible to enact school with starting IGs, the relevant IGs just need to be empowered. It's obviously not easy and it'll take time.
IG leader ideologies will change with further societal tech as well. I'm sure it's possible to remove state religion, just not easy by any means.

 

[Richard Dolder]

It seems not a bug but a design choice. They explicitly removed anti-clerical attributes from Qing's intelligentsia.

glares at design choice to make confucian scholars the devout and not intellegisia

 

[paulxiep]

glares at design choice to make confucian scholars the devout and not intellegisia

I'd argue it's about right. Confucianism calls itself a philosophy, but it's actually a set of ethics and morality. That makes it a religion. Many games already make Confucianism China's religion too, aside from Paradox games the Civilization series came to mind.

 

[Richard Dolder]

I'd argue it's about right. Confucianism calls itself a philosophy, but it's actually a set of ethics and morality. That makes it a religion. Many games already make Confucianism China's religion too, aside from Paradox games the Civilization series came to mind.

"Religion is philosophy as practiced by the masses"
I don't remotely disagree that Confucianism is a religion, it certainly is. But it's not like say socialism isn't a philosophy (or eugenics).

I disagree that they have the class interest of the devout, There aren't Confucian scholars attending to the local peasantry, they are in institutions of learning and the bureaucracy. They are the ones who benefit from appointed bureaucrats, they are the ones who would benefit from the massive bureaucracy needed to build institutions in china.
They are basically the quintessential intelligentsia, they just happened to be really really conservative. There isn't some other second group of bureaucrats and scholars in china in 1936.

 

[paulxiep]

"Religion is philosophy as practiced by the masses"
I don't remotely disagree that Confucianism is a religion, it certainly is. But it's not like say socialism isn't a philosophy (or eugenics).

I disagree that they have the class interest of the devout, There aren't Confucian scholars attending to the local peasantry, they are in institutions of learning and the bureaucracy. They are the ones who benefit from appointed bureaucrats, they are the ones who would benefit from the massive bureaucracy needed to build institutions in china.
They are basically the quintessential intelligentsia, they just happened to be really really conservative. There isn't some other second group of bureaucrats and scholars in china in 1936.

I think they have to make a choice between fitting Qing China into the game they designed, or designing the game around Qing China.
While I agree they should benefit from appointed bureaucrats, I still think they have the ideologies of the devout and so should be devout.
You can employ them in bureaucracy simply by keeping the state religion, in which case gov admin offices will employ clergymen, devout Confucianists, not intelligentsia bureaucrats.

There wasn't a second group of scholars in 1936, and that's why they stagnated until they got occupied by Japan and until the new regime took over. I don't think it's wrong to lump the confucionists with the obsolete system that any reforming players will have to get rid of. That said I'm pretty sure you can get recognized and progress in tech as a Confucian Qing as well. The game already has religious education and clergy administration as an alternative modernization choice.

 

[TheLand]

For some odd reason no one interest group ever supports getting rid of state religion as Qing and thus it is not possible to have schools either. The intelligensia just don´t care at all about this. Is this an error or wad? Is there a workaround or a mod to fix this?
Thx

I find it a bit of an odd decision that serfdom bans religious schools but not private schools. Surely if you're educating serfs at all, you want them to be educated by priests?

Of course it makes the serfdom + state religion combination more of a bind, but if you have that combination then you are unlikely to end up with more than a couple of levels of religious schools, and if you get them then the Devout IG is more entrenched and will probably resist all your other reforms

 

[Richard Dolder]

I still think they have the ideologies of the devout and so should be devout.

But not the class interests, which is what interest groups represent.
The buddhists(and daoists, but while daoists fit as clergy they don't ever wield any political influence) would make more sense as the devout with how IG attraction is assigned. As they are more impeded into rural life.

I don't think it's wrong to lump the confucionists with the obsolete system that any reforming players will have to get rid of.

The intellegisia being mindlessly progressive in the era of eugenics is certainly one of the games more...stupid things.
Also the devout being mindlessly regressive in the era of the church being major defenders of the poor and opponents to the abuses of capitalism is also....stupid.

 

[TheLand]

The intellegisia being mindlessly progressive in the era of eugenics is certainly one of the games more...stupid things.
Also the devout being mindlessly regressive in the era of the church being major defenders of the poor and opponents to the abuses of capitalism is also....stupid.

It is possible for the interest group leaders to affect ideology. Like, I think you can get a Reformer character in charge of the Devout or a Fascist in charge of the Intelligentsia. But I agree there's more scope for this to change systematically. Would be fun having Intelligentsia acquiring a Nationalist ideology, the Devout a Christian Socialist one, or the Landowners becoming Conservative not Reactionary

 

[FocusedHope]

I find it a bit of an odd decision that serfdom bans religious schools but not private schools. Surely if you're educating serfs at all, you want them to be educated by priests?

Of course it makes the serfdom + state religion combination more of a bind, but if you have that combination then you are unlikely to end up with more than a couple of levels of religious schools, and if you get them then the Devout IG is more entrenched and will probably resist all your other reforms

I think the point is, serfdom forbids educating serfs at all. Yes if they (the power-holders that the game's abstraction of "you can't have both these laws" represents) had only a choice between religious schools or public schools they'd choose religious schools, but in fact they have the ability to refuse both, so they do.

 

[GrounchoVilla]

I'd argue it's about right. Confucianism calls itself a philosophy, but it's actually a set of ethics and morality. That makes it a religion. Many games already make Confucianism China's religion too, aside from Paradox games the Civilization series came to mind.

Aristotle, Kant and Mill all had a set of ethics and morality and are widely considered philosophers. Confucius is best understood as a moral philosopher - if not Confucius himself, then the later thinkers in Confucianism such as Mencius certainly were. What makes it considered a religion is first and foremost that Confucians adopt religious practices and propagate the rituals of traditional Chinese religion. Therefore, functionally, it takes on a religious role in a social setting. But Confucius himself had a notably secular justification for engaging in ritual.

The line between religion and philosophy as we know it in the West applies well to Western religions and reasonably well to Indian (less so Buddhism), but doesn't hold up as well when it comes to Chinese thinking. Taoism and Confucianism arguably function as both and consistently blur the lines between these categories.

 

[TheLand]

I think the point is, serfdom forbids educating serfs at all. Yes if they (the power-holders that the game's abstraction of "you can't have both these laws" represents) had only a choice between religious schools or public schools they'd choose religious schools, but in fact they have the ability to refuse both, so they do.

Except it doesn't! Private schools are permissible under serfdom. Just so long as you don't have State Religion. Many places with serfdom have State Religion but not all of them - Japan for instance doesn't

law_religious_schools = {

    disallowing_laws = {
        law_total_separation
        law_serfdom
    }

law_private_schools = {
    
    disallowing_laws = {
        law_state_religion
    }

 

[FocusedHope]

Except it doesn't! Private schools are permissible under serfdom. Just so long as you don't have State Religion. Many places with serfdom have State Religion but not all of them - Japan for instance doesn't

law_religious_schools = {

    disallowing_laws = {
        law_total_separation
        law_serfdom
    }

law_private_schools = {
   
    disallowing_laws = {
        law_state_religion
    }

Well yeah, serfdom forbids any form of "accessible to all" education, religious or public. Private schools doesn't count as "educating serfs", because they're not likely to be able to pay for it. (Disregard game mechanics that say a small fraction of peasants will pay for private education; the "forbids educating serfs" is at a level of general policy where that is in fact disregarded.)