AARland Gazette Discussion and Feedback Thread!

[Smirfy]

Keep it civil

V

I thought I was, and stating self evident truth and addressing the root of the problem, you see it different fine then off course there is no problem.

I do not feel the need nor the want to attack anyone personally neither do I feel the need to write 4 pages when my opinion is can be summed up quickly. I am sorry that enquiry as to the artist merit in relation to forum praticalities offend but I feel it needs addressed if you want the community to grow.

 

[Smirfy]

V I agree let us keep this sophisticated, no need to attack single works and projects and I regret seeing this thread turned into some personal vendetta.

Personal vendetta!!!!!?????? where did that come from, You want debate I provided you with central arguements maybe If I could find an hour of my time to dress them up they would be more palatable but the core would remain the same.

 

[Valdemar]

I thought I was, and stating self evident truth and addressing the root of the problem, you see it different fine then off course there is no problem.

I do not feel the need nor the want to attack anyone personally neither do I feel the need to write 4 pages when my opinion is can be summed up quickly. I am sorry that enquiry as to the artist merit in relation to forum praticalities offend but I feel it needs addressed if you want the community to grow.

Smirf, no problem, but coming in from an absense it has turned away from discussing AARs, the Gazzette and the community building to a discussion of elitism and AARstyles... that IS a sidetrack... espicially when based on a single AAR and/or AAR style.

I know you came with the best intentions, but face the facts... this is not and will not be a PDOX gazzette, and we are not here to market the AARlands to other fora, we are here IMHO to cater to those who are here already or will come in the future, we are not a recruitment poster for AARlands any more than we are for FC...

I'm not saying it will not come, but for now, it is not in the cards...

I know you meant well, but from an outsider (that is me coming from outside the discussion, not oyu coming from outside the AARlands ) your post not only went OT but it also held more than a touch of singled attack on one style of writing... (if not on one writer per se) and a tone (intended or not) that I do not warrant in here. I did not read much constructive ideas into the last couple of pages, spare perhaps PE's very well thought out critique, which OFC is as much OT for this thread as so much else

V

 

[coz1]

V, contrary to your opinion, I do think there have been a few constructive ideas brought out in the last few pages, outside of the realm of AAR styles.

It seems one of the reoccuring themes deals with entry point - i.e. in through HoI or EUII. It seems some rarely visit the main forum site in where much of the special projects and side reside. Further, I think the idea of building from the bottom up is exactly what we have done in the past, and it seems as though what was previously built has blown away somewhat. I think this is one of the primary problems we are seeing with the current effort of AARland as a whole. We perceived the foundation to be strong, when in fact perhaps it was not. Why it was not, I have yet to discover. Nor am I certain that this is the case.

The fact that more membAARs have now involved themselves in this discussion is a positive sign, though I would very much agree with V that everyone keep it polite and thoughful in their responses. Let's try not to dismiss ideas outright, but at the same time, let's also try to maintain focus on what we are discussing. We are sure to disagree on certain things, but there are ways to do it with civility.

 

[unmerged(6777)]

Might I ask a deceptively simple question...

What, exactly, is it that you think is being discussed?

 

[Valdemar]

I'm sorry if it sounded like I dismissed ideas... I'm not, but I saw that the thread was singling out one style of AAR as bandwagon for a discussion of Elitism....

Elitism is a fair game.. singling out an AAR or AARstyle to base it upon is IMHO not sufficient grounds.. nor is it constructive... IF Elitism is percieved, then perhaps it would an idea to offer opinions on how to tackle that instead?

V

 

[coz1]

T - Assuming you have not read the last few pages of this thread (which is quite possible given it's length in some places ), I believe it is one of community spirit and participation. The entire discussion began as a response to LD's open letter, written as a response the the latest issue of the gazette, particularly the back in forth between myself and Alexandru in Aces High.

And V, I did not think you dismissed ideas. Just trying to move the conversation back towards the discussion itself.

 

[unmerged(6777)]

T - Assuming you have not read the last few pages of this thread (which is quite possible given it's length in some places ), I believe it is one of community spirit and participation. The entire discussion began as a response to LD's open letter, written as a response the the latest issue of the gazette, particularly the back in forth between myself and Alexandru in Aces High.

And V, I did not think you dismissed ideas. Just trying to move the conversation back towards the discussion itself.

Ah, but in fact I have read the last few pages (the entire thread, as it happens) and I disagree with your assessment of what is being discussed. That was the point of my question.

 

[Judge]

Ah, but in fact I have read the last few pages (the entire thread, as it happens) and I disagree with your assessment of what is being discussed. That was the point of my question.

T would you care to enlighten me as to what you think we are discussing then? There have been some peculiar spin-off discussions but if you add “writing styles” to what coz wrote I believe he is accurate

 

[unmerged(6777)]

T would you care to enlighten me as to what you think we are discussing then? There have been some peculiar spin-off discussions but if you add “writing styles” to what coz wrote I believe he is accurate

Really?

I believe it is one of community spirit and participation.

I have seen very little discussion directly on that topic.

I am mulling around some thoughts that I might put down on paper (and then post here) a little later, but I find it curious that the majority of posts are dicussing and/or rationalizing symptoms are few (none?) are particularly addressing the cause.

 

[unmerged(6777)]

Incidentally, as a side note I consider PE's summation of that tangent discussion to be right on the money.

 

[Judge]

Really?

*Sigh* what ever happened to the verbose Mr T? Crystal clear T

 

[unmerged(6777)]

*Sigh* what ever happened to the verbose Mr T? Crystal clear T

As Bruce mentioned in his letter, I am presently fully occupied with CK and have lttile or no time for much else - particularly since I've committed to do a complete revision of the bulk of the event files plus add several dozen more between now and the lock down on 1.03.

I will try to make time to elaborate on my comments, but as I said in my post I have not really seen much discussion that address the heart of the matter and I do not think that chipping away at some of the easily-identified peripheral symptoms is likely to do more than bruise some egos or result in hard feelings - witness the fact that this is already happening in the more recent posts in this thread.

Perhaps you could summarise your thoughts to help a poor old soul like myself along the way...?

What is it that you identify as being a/the problem?

 

[coz1]

Originally Posted by MrT
Ah, but in fact I have read the last few pages (the entire thread, as it happens) and I disagree with your assessment of what is being discussed. That was the point of my question.

I have seen very little discussion directly on that topic.

You are entirely correct in that summation. The discussion of that topic by many has been sadly missing as the thread moved towards styles (for whatever reason). But the point remains that LD's original open letter and the AARticle it was based on are discussing that idea. My many posts here have been trying to move back towards that, but I have not had much success.

Originally Posted by MrT
I am mulling around some thoughts that I might put down on paper (and then post here) a little later, but I find it curious that the majority of posts are dicussing and/or rationalizing symptoms are few (none?) are particularly addressing the cause.

As to the cause, you may be right. But I would repeat, perhaps the foundation we thought we had when the forums were mixed was either not as strong as first thought or not existant at all. I think this may also be the reason mention of the "heydays" has entered into this. That sense of community from EUII is now lacking and it severly hurts certain forum-wide projects, both through participation and by the seeming lack of folks to volunteer (and thus assisting in taking some slack off of you, LD, V and Stroph1, not to mention the bAARtenders who have worked rather hard over the past few months.)


And to answer you last post, I will repeat:

Originally Posted by coz1
Yet the question still remains, where are the able bodies to take up the mantle of membAARship? Where are the volunteers to start new initiatives that might satisfy the log writAARs? Where are the responders to the narratives and those projects already available for that style? And how do we, as a group, maintain this place as a positive and yes, progressive place, with input and action from as many people as we can get, rather than a few that really care?

The point of the conversation between Alexandru and myself was that if we do not see more people stepping forward, it will become a crisis at some point soon. If LD makes the decision to leave, and the other mods are overworked to the point of exhaustion, and there are not enough "soldiers", as it were, to pick up the slack...well, where does that leave us? It's an open question, I suppose, but I submit that it leaves us in a worse place than we have been in prior to now.

I think that sums up my thoughts on the problem and asks questions on what to do about it.

 

[Judge]

Perhaps you could summarise your thoughts to help a poor old soul like myself along the way...?

What is it that you identify as being a/the problem?

PROBLEM

Problem/s? Well I guess the main question was how to keep the forum as ONE community after having many sections going in different directions in various respects. That discussion has then involved writing styles, interaction and the sweet memory of the hey-days.

SUMMARY OF THOUGHTS

It´s fairly easy to sum up my thoughts I believe. Despite good initiatives from various people the AAR land is drifting apart. What will come out of that remains to see but I think I have already provided some thoughts in the Gazette in the latest article portraying three different futures. I will not clutter up this thread by repeating the content of the article though.

What I think of this developement? Sadly I think it is inevitable but there will still be a lot of nice people around, including some poor old souls doing their best to improve CK to the benefit of us all.

 

[Alexandru H.]

Fuck! Sorry for this language, but I just lost two pages, my personal contribution to the ongoing discussion! The way the forum has worked the past days is killing my attention and reading habits...Oh well, I'll try the next issue of the Gazette (which, btw, could be lighter than the last issue, since I've seen few people with an interest in writing an aarticle...)

coz1, I think you are wrong about the current topic. It always was "AARland". The problem is we have a concept and nothing else to link it to the current forum. Simply putting the = sign between AARland and all our activities here is quite ambitious and, unfortunately, a project worth failing. Ok, let's recommend to the new people: "Go and read an AAR". They will, most probably (and unfortunately) flock towards one of PE's pieces, ignoring LD's novel-like reports. Now, we are faced with a challenge: we did everything we were supposed to do, the new members did the same, yet one of us feels left out of the community. This is not a joking matter, because, as things are at this moment, we expect that each small or impressive AAR is part of "AARland". And it isn't.

The AARland is suppossed to be a community. Well, a community has some strict rules and regulations. Judging by those, Peter is not a part of it, since his contributions are strictly linked to his own aars. He acts more like that foreign professor who comes for a lecture at your university, receiving an award, and leaving the next day. Being part of the community is a full-time job and few people manage to devote so much time to it. I had the idea for a sort of citizenship, some kind of recognition that would make the AARland more about participatory action than simply writing a piece. In fact, I disagree with some "blown horns" of this thread, in which certain people talked about their AARs as a proof of their communitarian status. Wrong, an AAR is not an entrance ticket in AARland; an avid reader can be a better member is he commits himself entirely to the group. LD is part of AARland because of his global contributions not because of his Hauteville AAR. Peter is not.

This is my proposal: let's make a special edition of the Gazette in two weeks (the issue after the one that will appear on Sunday), with a single topic and several views on the subject. Let's talk about AARland: what is it, what should it be, who is part of it, what is the role of AARs/writers/readers/informal leaders, what went wrong and what should we do about it etc... Let's bring order in our thoughts and define exactly what we do here. Because, frankly, nobody has a clue about it.

 

[Estonianzulu]

Judge, I disagree with you. I dont see us drifting apart at all. Look at this discussion for proof.

We haven't degenerated into arguments over one game being better than the others, or one game's writers being best. It isn't happening. No one is getting angered and posting about how they will never return because their game is not as popular. It isn't really happening. There is no seperation.

In fact, the only thing I see any disagreement on in these speeches is vague and unrelated. No one has come up and said that there is a concrete and real problem. Sure, there are people not happy with the replies they get, but thats always been around. And there are some AAR's that dont get as much attention as others, but again, thats been around.

We seem to be finding, as someone I know puts it "demon's under doilies". There is not a problem which is ripping this forum apart, unless it is the fact that there is no problem! We all seem to be sidestepping eachother, and in the last 5 pages of this I dont think Ive actually read anything! (Including in my own posts) We are looking at this forum like fans of history. We see it as some grand social construct with rules, and pathes to follow and a history which will end in some determined present. But thats not what the forum is.

The AAR forum is here, stop me if I am wrong, to allow us to tell, and allow us to read, After Action Reports. Thats all. We form the Baar's to allow us a bit more conversation, and this center page to link the four forum's into one. Thats it, in my oppinion. And when we start seeing it as something more, we start putting problems where they dont exist.

And Alexandru I have to say your wrong. Just because someone writes and reads does not exclude him from the community. That is what this community is made up of and made for. I mean, look at it. Back in the starting days of EU2 there was no centralized forum. I don't even remember a bAAR (if it was here, it was no where near as used as they are now). People who were members of the "community" were people who read, and wrote, AAR's.

Maybe I'm on my own, but I would rather not see a Gazette only on this issue. Really everyone has posted their oppinions, many of us twice, so writing articles would be a bit overkill.

 

[Alexandru H.]

And Alexandru I have to say your wrong. Just because someone writes and reads does not exclude him from the community. That is what this community is made up of and made for. I mean, look at it. Back in the starting days of EU2 there was no centralized forum. I don't even remember a bAAR (if it was here, it was no where near as used as they are now). People who were members of the "community" were people who read, and wrote, AAR's.

I disagree. The forum was perfect for two things: reading and writing. At the beginning, no one thought that they were part of a community, yet they followed the same rules, done the same things, wrote the same stuff, played the same game and read the same AARs. It was an involuntary community, but it was a community nevertheless. The new games brought to an end all of that, but then LD came with the "AARland" idea, which was the only answer to a big problem (accomodating every new guy to the idea of a great AAR forum, not only for HoI or Victoria, but also for the older games). In the Gazette, I said that this was the beginning of the "formalization" and "society" era, and the truth is "old days" cannot explain anymore what are we doing here.

This is not a problem of me excluding someone else. Everyone is part of the AAR forum. And everyone should choose their level of commitement. The problem here is finding the ones that can respond to any new challenge the forum has to face, it's about involvement and deep caring. It's not just about AARs, it's not about moderating, it's about lending a hand whenever it's necessary, it's about "citizenship", if you want. We all live in the same space, yet just a handful can recite the constitution by heart.

The forum is not a community, is made up of several little ones and the job of the "AARland" is to bring them all together, under a common roof. And this doesn't require just simple threads and "attaboy" comments, it requires educators. My point is: let's locate those educators and give them assignments.

 

[The_Hawk]

I had the idea for a sort of citizenship, some kind of recognition that would make the AARland more about participatory action than simply writing a piece.

You know, it might seem a bit campy, but I actually think that's an excellent idea.

I've been mulling over this thread since my last post, and I keep coming back to the concept of investment. For the last several years, I've been involved with a journal at my law school. We have a consistent problem; we need a certain number of students to become involved with the journal each semester, because the semester thereafter, they're needed to do a lot of the scut work. Yet, each semester, we get maybe 25-30 students interested at the beginning of the semester, yet only 5-10 actually complete the writing assignment necessary to become a part of the journal.

Why? The best answer I can come up with is investment. Their first semester, students don't get anything out of the journal; they don't get credit, we don't force them to sign a paper which obligates them to complete the assignment, and they can, in most cases, try again next year. In other words, they don't participate because they don't have a reason to participate.

This place is not so different. What's the most we can hope for if we participate in various community projects? A sense of belonging. What's the most we can hope for if we don't? Maintenance of the status quo. What happens if we get involved and then discover we're not interested or don't have time? We disappoint people who were relying on us or expecting us to participate. Into this calculus can be factored our penchant for doing things for the love of it, which is no small matter to be sure, but can be expected to be wildly variable depending on the person and project involved.

The conclusion I must reach, then, is that if veterans do not become involved in projects (and here, when I use the word "project", the gamut runs from things like Guess-the-Author to mere commenting on other people's AARs), it is because they do not feel they will get anything out of the time spent there. It has often been surmised, and I think supported empirically, that as a community we are generally older and more mature than your average online forum; most of us have active "real" lives and could be spending the time spent here doing any number of other things. So why do we choose to spend what we spend here, here? And what can we do to make people spend more?

In this sense, I do not think the discussion of writing styles is unrelated, a point made in my earlier post. We seem to have reached the conclusion that the majority of new authors gravitate toward styles which are more "true" AARs, whereas those who have been around for a time often experiment with different styles which are less AAR and more AAR plus something else. Let us surmise that veterans are as involved as they are because they know the people they engage in projects with, and because they, in some cases, feel strongly about advancing one project or another.

(I must remark here that I disagree with LD on some level; it seems to me that virtually any participation in these forums involves advancing or developing someone's writing style. Perhaps one comments with only attaboys, but when one comments with something more, is it not to better the writing on which one is commenting? When one votes for an AAR, does one not do so to indicate what one finds most appealing, and is the natural conclusion of other authors not that they should aspire to follow that trend? While perhaps only the SolAARium and the FC are clearly dedicated to improving writing, it seems to me that virtually anything else that goes on on the AAR forums has this effect, too, whether consciously or unconsciously. Of course, that's not to suggest that what is being encouraged is some unitary vision of what perfect writing is; on the contrary, one's comments in a log-style AAR may only encourage the author to make the best log-style AAR they can.)

What, then, do newcomers see when they arrive? People who know people, and who are involved in their projects for that reason, or people who pursue various projects because they are interested in them for one reason or another? If that is their reality (and I am quite conscious that I have made a number of assumptions here to arrive at that supposition), what do newcomers gain by becoming involved? What can we offer them that they'll actually want?

Er... *coughs*. To quote Monty Python, "I seem to have strayed somewhat from my original brief"... nevertheless, I think that I've identified what strikes me as the problems with becoming involved, and I think Alexandru's idea is an excellent first step in tossing around suggestions of how to fix it.

 

[coz1]

I do happen to agree with what Alexandru has had to say, for the most part, however I do believe someone who only writes their own work is a membAAR, but perhaps not a very good one. But this still comes down to level of participation (and thus The_Hawks points are bery good way of describing that theory.)

Now Estonianzulu, if we only have readers and writers then who will run the special intiatives such as the bAARs, the librAARies, guess-the-author, the gazette, etc.? We have seen who in the past year - no one. Without further participation outside of simply reading and writing, they do not exist. Now, is that the kind of forum you want? Perhaps it is. I would like more, and I think it is possible because I have seen it exist in the past. Now maybe I'm the only one and that's fine. But I wish someone would just go ahead and say that in order to save me a lot of unappreciated work. And perhaps I am not the only one that feels that way as well.