AARland Choice AwAARds 2005 Q4

[coz1]

Still not 100% convinced on whether to allow votes for one AAR in multiple categories. Any further conversation on that point might help me along!

Personally, I don't see any issue in allowing AARs that cross lines between one style or another to be eligable for multiple votes if they deserve such. As long as voters don't slam the voting with the same AAR in every catagory, it should work fine. After all, your own Fire Warms does excellent work on both sides of the historical and narrative, as does Mett's and many others. If the shoe fits kind of thing, I suppose. I trust voters to make the right choice on the whole.

 

[stnylan]

Good point - but shouldn't we try to work to remedy this sorry state of affairs instead of exacerbating it?

I agree, but I think the reasons for it are systemic if you will. An interesting in the EU2 period, or CK, or Vic generally translates into a general interest in history. Writers and readers of those games seem more frequently to be present in multiple game forums, including HoI. In contrast there are a large number of people interested in WW2 who are not interested in wider history, and so do not venture outside of the HoI setting. *shrug* I think this has been the case since HoI1 days really, and nothing much has changed since. Call me cynical, pessimistic, or perhaps a trifle jaded.

Renss - I have no problems with multiple category voting. After all, films can get nominated for more than one slot in the Oscars. Announcing the winners in the Advocate seems an excellent idea. As for the overall award I am very ambivalent. I do think a weighting system brings more complications and conflicts than it is worth, and frankly I have decided I dislike the implicit competition between the different games.

Personally, while I think the awards should be publicised in the separate forums I would prefer to see the voting take place only in the main forum, if only to make the more insular members who wish to take part (and they are not all HoI-ers after all) actually visit and become aware of the main forum's existence. I also like the idea of having them all in one place. But, at the end of the day, I'll go with the flow.

 

[cthulhu]

Actually, that was never my main concern. I just wanted a logical hierarchy of awards...

I wasn't referring to your ideas specifically. The "weird schemes" part was intended as a comment on previous posts by others where ideas were put forth to differentiate how much a vote is worth, depending on where it’s coming from.

I’m all for a Top AwAARd without any special rules to balance the interest in the different games.

Of course, how much of a community is it when there when gentlemen like SH quite openly state they would be unprepared to read aars from games outside their own narrow interests? What community interaction?

Actually, that's not what I think Humphrey is saying. I think he's saying that we should accept that the different popularity of the various Paradox games will affect the interest in AARs and that's OK.

 

[stnylan]

cthulu, how else can interpret the following? (emphasis mine)

Now I am not suggesting the HoI/HoI2 AArs are better than anyone else, but why should my vote be disapated and worth less for the sake of some AAR, say in Crusader Kings, that I have never read, nor will have any interest in reading? More a reflection of the era/time period rather than a reflection of the AAR itself.

Here is a respected forum member explicitly saying he cannot be bothered to read an aar outside his narrow area of interest. Sounds pretty clear-cut language to me.

Such attitudes are a fact of life in the forum, and have been since HoI was released. *shrug* You seem to think that is ok, but there I am afraid we just see things differently.

 

[cthulhu]

I stand corrected, snyltan. But in any event, although I personally only need a good story and good writing to take an interest in an AAR, I don't think there's anything wrong if a reader just don't like medieval or say sci-fi stories. That's just something we’ll have to accept.

 

[stnylan]

I probably sound more irate about this than I actually am. I guess my irritation is that part of the purpose of the awards is to promote cross-game interaction, and it just annoys me that some people are just not prepared to expand their horizones. Mmmm, if that irritates me I guess I can't really be that cynical

 

[cthulhu]

...and it just annoys me that some people are just not prepared to expand their horizones.

I agree with this. But think positive, in a not too distant future, EU3 will hit the shelves and EU AARs will be very popular. Maybe even more so than HOI ones.

 

[CatKnight]

I don't fault SH for not wanting to leave HOI often. I mean, everyone has different interests. CK isn't his cup of tea. I'm fine with that. I rarely go into the HOI forums, unless it's a friend writing or something really wows me.

The fact that there is at least the perception of a divide between HOI and the older games is undeniable. That's also fading over time. Our community is now very old by online standards, it takes time for old and new blood to find a way to coexist. Hell, I'm primarily a EU2 player and how many people did I butt heads with in the early months? (And still sometimes!)

If we are going to have an overall vote, then it should be completely neutral (ie- no weighting, no nothing.) If it turns out that one or two games dominates...well, that's the nature of the community at this time. Coz compared us to the movie awards when advocating voting in more than one genre... to my knowledge the awards don't weigh votes to give the less popular but certainly excellent movies a chance to shine. They stand on their own merits.

I firmly believe the GREAT AARs...the ones that deserve this title... will cross genre lines as word spreads. Remember Mett's "Advantages...?" I told you I'm not an HOI reader, but once I learned about it and caught up, I was an avid reader. Renn's "Fire Warms..." from Vicky has also gained a lot of attention from non-Vicky players. Alhazen's "Sins of the Father" has done that from the CK forum. Yes, it may take time and relies on word of mouth. (Maybe we should talk about the central baar again? Another debate entirely...) but I wonder if dominance of the main title will take care of itself over time. I'm not convinced a genre or game's popularity renders a vote unfair, but I'm pretty sure saying one man's vote isn't worth another's (weighting) brings us dangerously close.

Finding ways to draw the forums together has troubled greater minds than mine for years. For this Choice, I think having stickied links from the subfora will help. Do NOT permit seperate voting (ie- voting in the subfora.) Once a reader starts seeing they can also vote in all these other subfora, maybe that'll encourage expansion.

 

[fj44]

Do NOT permit seperate voting (ie- voting in the subfora.) Once a reader starts seeing they can also vote in all these other subfora, maybe that'll encourage expansion.

Agreed.

There is a rift between HoI and all the others. Myself, I used to be an avid HoI player and reader. I switched to Vicky, and branch out into CK and EU2, as well. I don't think that many do this, however.

I don't seek to criticize those who stay in one AAR subforum, but to recognize the facts. The newest Paradox title will almost always have many more people than the older ones.

As to a way to have a 'THE best AAR' competition, the solution is to not have one. As much as it saddens me, the HoI AARs will almost always win, and penalizing the HoI AARs to even the playing field seems really wrong to me. As much as I'd like an overall best, I say let each subforum say "Our subforum's best AAR is really the best", and leave it at that.

 

[coz1]

You know, I just need to add that any idea of weighting was not intended to "punish" HoI voters or their votes specifically. The same exact weights would have been added to HoI titles as well. It was more an idea to get a larger vote total overall for the Favorite AAR Overall, and in the process somewhat diluting any favoritism that numbers without the weight might suggest, which to be truthful, would still be only a half-measure and thus not worth it in the long run as I have grown to think about it. I remain pretty deadset at this point against even having a Favorite Overall. I still say let the readers decide that by their own comments for that particular recognition.

EDIT - Or if we really need to have a Best/Favorite Overall, let's just automatically make it the one with the most votes for their particular AAR rather than having some sort of face off between games, or a general vote for such. If AAR A receives a grand total of 15 some odd votes overall through the various catagories, and AAR B receives 12, then AAR A is situated nicely to be considered Favorite overall. After all, it did receive the most total votes. It's not ideal, and I'd still rather just leave it altogether, but it seems the fairest way if we must have some sort of Overall between all the games.

And for voting in the subforums, if it were done, it would absolutely have to have clear links to the voting in the other subforums. Regardless of how this is run, it needs to be understood clearly that voting is being done all over AARland and not in just one subforum alone. However, by allowing people to vote in their own subforum, they never have to leave that world if they find such does not suit them. As much as I would love to find a way to convince folks that there is great work being done all over the place here, I gave up long ago trying to force that issue. People will move around if they so desire, and for that I am always and truthfully thankful. And for those that do not, all I can say is they are missing some outstanding AARs!

 

[Duke of Wellington]

Are the Q1 AwAARds likely to begin soon?

 

[fj44]

Are the Q1 AwAARds likely to begin soon?

I think Rensslaer said tomorrow. That would be real time.

 

[Rensslaer]

I am going to post this sometime today -- hopefully sooner rather than later, but I'm not sure my lunch hour is going to allow enough time to do so.

I remain an optimist, and so this is how I would prefer to do the voting:

One thread for voting in the General Discussion (Main) Forum.

Threads for voting in each of the subfora FOR THAT GAME ONLY with links to the Main thread and an emphasis/advertisement to reach out.

I do not believe that any of these should be stickied. We hear talk of the "kiss of death" and I believe that happens because we don't think the stickies change.

If it remains a floating item in each thread, I think it is important that voting be allowed in the thread, otherwise it will drift to the bottom and get lost.

This will be an experiment, and I may have to eat my shorts, but we'll see!

For now, I will not have an "Overall Forum Favorite", but there is an advertisement and encouragement for people to prove it will work, so that I can open it. I'm going for Full Forum Manipulation, here!!!

Oh, and no weighting. The only difference from last time (I think) will be that if an AAR gets a (Game) Overall Favorite, that it won't get a lesser award (which will fall to the next highest tally for that lesser award).

Last minute thoughts?

Renss

 

[coz1]

Sounds like you have it under control, Renss. It's been mentioned earlier, but I would make sure to place links to the other game forum voting in each subforum voting thread. You probably planned to already, but just making sure. Everything else sounds just fine by me. Thanks so much for taking on this role, Renss!

 

[unmerged(40258)]

perhaps a link in some poster's signatures would also draw more votes. what do you think of that? i am willing to do it.

 

[Rensslaer]

perhaps a link in some poster's signatures would also draw more votes. what do you think of that? i am willing to do it.

Absolutely! The more people who do this, the more attention it will get.

Thank you!

Rensslaer

 

[unmerged(17581)]

Wow, I come back and find this! I don't know what to say, guys! Sorry for being gone. Thanks Rensslaer, and everyone else for continuing this. I really am at a loss for words...

 

[Rensslaer]

Wow, I come back and find this! I don't know what to say, guys! Sorry for being gone. Thanks Rensslaer, and everyone else for continuing this. I really am at a loss for words...

You're VERY welcome!

Thanks for starting the thing in the first place!

If you don't mind letting me finish out this round, I'd be glad to let you take over again if you're going to be around and would like to... This is A LOT of work!

Welcome back!!!

Renss

 

[coz1]

Even better, anonymous - take a look at the new round going on currently.