AAR Thread

[N..o..]

Oh boy, catching up on the livestreamed session, it's great to see another election resulting in a governing Intelligentsia interest group despite nobody voting for them. I can't wait for the next AAR where the devs decide to spice things up by putting the Intelligentsia as the backbone of a government that also includes something wild and crazy like the military, ooh!

How's modern-day US politics relevant to Victoria 3?

 

[Morrowind3]

And what makes your subject accept their "reduction"? Just having good relations with them?

Attitude too, probably. Their relationship was good in the stream but their attitude was rebellious, and that definitely sounds like something that would cause them to reject further subjugation

 

[RaccoonCity]

Attitude too, probably. Their relationship was good in the stream but their attitude was rebellious, and that definitely sounds like something that would cause them to reject further subjugation

And what defines my colonial subject attitude? What defines if I can "puppet" my colonial subject without going to a war against it and my foreign enemies?

 

[Morrowind3]

And what defines my colonial subject attitude? What defines if I can "puppet" my colonial subject without going to a war against it and my foreign enemies?

There's a tooltip that breaks down the values. Though, it doesn't seem very useful right now lmao, they showed the tooltip once for France's 'cordial' attitude and it was basically just 'France is cordial +500". Hopefully that's not final.

In any case, whether they will refuse is always a sort of guesswork, but I think that's part of their intentional game design, that it should be a risk to take, like how king george taxing the thirteen colonies was a risk he took (and lost). However, if the colony refuses you'll be able to back down assuming, they didn't include independence in their demands.

 

[RaccoonCity]

There's a tooltip that breaks down the values. Though, it doesn't seem very useful right now lmao, they showed the tooltip once for France's 'cordial' attitude and it was basically just 'France is cordial +500". Hopefully that's not final.

In any case, whether they will refuse is always a sort of guesswork, but I think that's part of their intentional game design, that it should be a risk to take, like how king george taxing the thirteen colonies was a risk he took (and lost). However, if the colony refuses you'll be able to back down assuming, they didn't include independence in their demands.

I get your point, but the problem was if I recall right that in the stream they wanted to "puppet" Dutch East Indies because as a colonial subject they didn't join Netherlands into the war against Brunei.

This doesn't make any sense.

I don't like how subjects are made. They act as different countries that are mere allies, instead of being part of the same empire/nation.

 

[Troyen]

These people will keep making excuses even up to the day before release. "its a leaked version pffff. Its an AAR, its hot hot" etc. Two months before release. And after years of development xd

To be clear, there is a huge difference between critiquing balance 10 months before release (even though we didn't know it was 10 months) and two months before release. It's expected that balance will be out of whack when major features are still being implemented (like warfare) because any careful balance you math out will be upended by new features and new system interactions, so balancing too early is a waste of time. It becomes a concern when balance is out of whack as you close in on the 1.0 master you're going to distribute. Thus, there's a big difference between say the Canada AAR and the Siberia AAR.

 

[Jamaican Castle]

And what makes your subject accept their "reduction"? Just having good relations with them?

The same things that make the target of any diplomatic play back down, presumably: lack of any ability to fend you off, and lack of anyone else who might be inclined to help them.

 

[Pyoro]

Vaguely depressing, but if I had any deep desire to play this on release that's more or less dead now - at least I can't say the stream wasn't informative ^^; I'll come by in a year or two, probably; unless I get really bored and want something to complain about ...

 

[unmerged(760025)]

And what makes your subject accept their "reduction"? Just having good relations with them?

No, as a matter of fact Wizz said during the stream that you can't start a diplomatic play against a nation you have too good relations with.
What can lead a nation to agree to your demand during the diplomatic play instead of going to war is if they think the situation is hopeless and they have no chance to win the war.
To take the example of the Netherlands making a play against dutch Indonesia to reduce their autonomy, dutch Indonesia is very unlikely to simply agree because their army is twice as big as the dutch one so they should be optimistic about their chances of winning unless the Netherlands can bring a military powerhouse to their side of the diplomatic play.

 

[Spartakus]

Tbf it came as a surprise to them too. It's hot code and they'll look into it.

That makes it so much worse. Minor issues and surprising bugs and unfinished AI happens all the time, no one worries about that 2 month before release.

But this is a pretty major design flaw that pretty much everyone who followed the Guatemala AAR was aware of. Wiz even commented on a proposed solution. The subject revolt problems were known in this very thread even longer. These are not the kind of things that are easy to fix when you have less then 2 months to go.

 

[Ololorium]

That makes it so much worse. Minor issues and surprising bugs and unfinished AI happens all the time, no one worries about that 2 month before release.

But this is a pretty major design flaw that pretty much everyone who followed the Guatemala AAR was aware of. Wiz even commented on a proposed solution. The subject revolt problems were known in this very thread even longer. These are not the kind of things that are easy to fix when you have less then 2 months to go.

It's strange that they didn't fix it earlier (and seemed unaware about it too), but what exactly makes it so hard to fix? It's not some complex system, it's just one diplomatic action.

 

[DM818]

Technically you don’t go to war, launch a diplo play that can end in war or not. But yes, it’s strange that what is a political reorganization or your empire causes an international crisis. Of course with vassal that are not part of your empire makes sense how it’s implemented, but not for colonial governments or companies.

I understand why they made it that way though. They want those tags to be playable, that the game doesn’t end because the metropolis decide to integrate you. But I think it could be implemented better. For these kind of subjects, integration should be initiated like in other pdx games. Then during the process the colonial government might try to rebel and launch a diplo play to become independent, which might end on preserving the status quo or scalars to an independence war. If not diplo pay is launched then the process ends with the incorporation after some time. A bit like colonization works.

I am hoping that the reason that puppet play was likely to escalate to war was due to the fact that the subject was already on the verge of declaring independence. It does make some amount of sense that if a subject is already gearing up to declare independence the home government reducing its autonomy would spark a war.

If a loyal subject would be unlikely to accept steps towards integration then there is definitely a problem.

 

[Spartakus]

It's strange that they didn't fix it earlier (and seemed unaware about it too), but what exactly makes it so hard to fix? It's not some complex system, it's just one diplomatic action.

The more I think about it the more I'm fine with the Belgians inviting the EIC into the play. Well, except that they should'nt have had an interest in the Rhine Region but let's call that a bug.
But an overlords rule over a subject and how to deal with revolutions or gradual political change in a subject is a pretty complex problem.

 

[shoebird]

I am hoping that the reason that puppet play was likely to escalate to war was due to the fact that the subject was already on the verge of declaring independence. It does make some amount of sense that if a subject is already gearing up to declare independence the home government reducing its autonomy would spark a war.

If a loyal subject would be unlikely to accept steps towards integration then there is definitely a problem.

Diplo plays are needed regardless of the desire of independence to integrate a Colony, so the possibility for foreign involvement is there always. Of course if they don’t have a desire to become independent they are going to probably agree on the integration, so no war, but still it feels strange that an international crisis is sparked under those circumstances, even if doesn’t lead to war. I think that what I propose would make more sense and be more immersive, but that’s just my opinion.

 

[Atalvyr]

I think it is perfectly fair for any power who wants to mess with the overlord trying to integrate his subject to propose joining a war to prevent the integration, but ultimately the subject would have to have the desire to fight in order for a war to happen. Even if the Cape Colony has decent relations with Great Britain, an ambitious France offering to go to war for their independence should probably still be an enticing offer, if the alternative is losing their autonomy. But they still might decide that risking the lives of their citizens for independence from the motherland they quite like is not something they want to embark on.

 

[Ololorium]

But an overlords rule over a subject and how to deal with revolutions or gradual political change in a subject is a pretty complex problem.

How to deal with gradual change is a relatively complex problem that will require additional mechanics (or at least a "roll back political changes" diplomatic play for the owner), but being able to choose a side when a subject has a rebellion is pretty straightforward. It's reasonable to expect that they will implement that before release.

 

[Hammrtime]

Buganda AAR Below:

Spoiler: Buganda AAR Part 1

Spoiler: Buganda AAR Part 1

Spoiler: Buganda AAR Part 1

 

[JesterInYellow]

Buganda AAR Below:

Sigh...

Y'know, I can't complain too much, because the game does at least offer pushback in this AAR; that's a really nice sign and I'm quite happy to see it, compared to every other AAR. It's just...disheartening that even when the Intelligentsia isn't viable, the one and only thought in the devs' minds is "How do I get a dictatorship of the intelligentsia installed ASAP."

On the other hand, isn't this downright...incorrect? Weren't we told that the buddhist IG in Japan had different ideologies to the catholic church? Maybe that was unique to just the country of Japan, or I'm misremembering it. It is kind of sad that religion is so interchangable in Vicky 3. Not necessarily an incorrect depiction of the religions, if the ideologies are generic enough, but certainly a hamper on replayability and flavor. It's hard to feel the difference between a buddhist country and an islamic country if there literally is no difference (except the taboos, but that's determined by culture, not religion.)

Actually, he says obsessions are effected by religion? Isn't that directly contradicting the previous dev diaries? Guys I think Paul is from another timeline, we've been Mandela Effect'd (or it's just hard to keep track of so many different versions of the game)

 

[Hammrtime]

Y'know, I can't complain too much, because the game does at least offer pushback in this AAR; that's a really nice sign and I'm quite happy to see it, compared to every other AAR. It's just...disheartening that even when the Intelligentsia isn't viable, the one and only thought in the devs' minds is "How do I get a dictatorship of the intelligentsia installed ASAP."

My concern here is that they are the only way to liberalize. Why not consider the industrialists instead, will they not help you with some of these laws? Are you going to be pigeon holed with underdeveloped and backward laws on minor countries to go intelligentsia? It makes sense they are the most progressive, but is this the only way to get better laws in this situation?

On the other hand, isn't this downright...incorrect? Weren't we told that the buddhist IG in Japan had different ideologies to the catholic church? Maybe that was unique to just the country of Japan, or I'm misremembering it. It is kind of sad that religion is so interchangable in Vicky 3. Not necessarily an incorrect depiction of the religions, if the ideologies are generic enough, but certainly a hamper on replayability and flavor. It's hard to feel the difference between a buddhist country and an islamic country if there literally is no difference (except the taboos, but that's determined by culture, not religion.)

The Devout IG along with all other IGs will have varying starting ideologies by country. So one country IGs should be different from the other. How different we don't know. Religion is definitely not getting much love in this game. I don't know the IG balance through out the game but I get the sense that Devout IG will lose lots of power as the game moves on in most play throughs.

Taboos are decided by religion (Muslims will not like liquor and wine). Obsessions are decided by culture. Paul either misspoke or there has been a very recent change.

 

[JesterInYellow]

My concern here is that they are the only way to liberalize. Why not consider the industrialists instead, will they not help you with some of these laws? Are you going to be pigeon holed with underdeveloped and backward laws on minor countries to go intelligentsia? It makes sense they are the most progressive, but is this the only way to get better laws in this situation?

Absolutely. We've seen very little of the IGs beyond Intelligentsia, Industrialists, and Landowners. Occasionally we've gotten hints at the Devout, Military, or Trade Unions, but the Petite Bourgeois and Rural Folk have been essentially nonexistent in any of Paradox's coverage of the game, let alone the AARs. I think one of the problems might be that the Intelligentsia support all of the "better" laws (I.E. the ones that make your country more economically powerful and stable) whereas all the other IGs only support some or none, meaning that you'd dead end if you're trying to use the "Better" laws by relying on them. So instead of supporting an IG that will eventually just dead end, the devs have been pumping up the IG that will take them all the way (a little too easily, usually.)

The Devout IG along with all other IGs will have varying starting ideologies by country. So one country IGs should be different from the other. How different we don't know. Religion is definitely not getting much love in this game. I don't know the IG balance through out the game but I get the sense that Devout IG will lose lots of power as the game moves on in most play throughs.

As far as I know, only farms seem to employ clergy, without specific laws to employ them as bureaucrats, which is a little concerning. I don't know where else you'd slot them in (maybe Services?) but I feel like an urban population can quite easily support a strong clergy, so there needs to be a spot for them to grow along with the industrialization of the world. Secularization is not an inevitable consequence of factories. I want to do a run as Siam with a buddhist theocracy without being stuck with traditionalist economics, damnit!

Taboos are decided by religion (Muslims will not like liquor and wine). Obsessions are decided by culture. Paul either misspoke or there has been a very recent change.

This is actually not exactly true. The taboos of a pop have nothing to do with what religion they are, but rather what religion their culture is. A Turkish Catholic, for example, will always have the Islamic taboo of liquor and wine, whereas a Greek Muslim never will. Very unintuitive.

Closely tied to cultures and religions are the concepts of taboos and obsessions. Both of these affect, either negatively or positively, how much Pops are willing to pay for and consume certain goods. As such, both taboos and obsessions only apply to consumer goods as opposed to military or industrial goods (so no tank obsessions, sorry). Obsessions are tied to cultures, for instance the French culture being obsessed with wine or the Nepali with tea. As you might have guessed, taboos on the other hand are tied to religions. Importantly though, they still manifest themselves culturally. Every culture has a religion tied to it and “inherits” the taboos from that religion. This means that a catholic turkish pop will still have a taboo against wine and liquor for instance.

From Dev Diary 56