AAR Thread

[wilcoxchar]

1. You mean during American *civil war*? (one could think civil wars are pretty distinct from other wars, and should have own mechanics related to annexations etc)

You mean a secessionist war since the Civil War is not actually a civil war in that sense. And no, I mostly mean after a successful Confederate secession since a secessionist revolt probably doesn't have much ability to add wargoals besides independence.

2. How much sense does it make for France to exchange Paris for Turin or Zurich?

Depends on the specific case. There's a lot of factors to consider there, such as how badly France lost whatever war you're talking about, the progress of the war regarding France maybe capitulating Sardinia or Switzerland before losing and capitulating to the other powers involved, exactly who they're ceding Paris to, etc. You can't make a blanket judgement on that since we don't know all the factors involved.

 

[wilcoxchar]

Confederates vs Union is a civil war. Stop making this irrelevant and stupid comparison. If you really don't see the difference here I don't think I can help you.

I'm not making any comparison, and it is in fact quite relevant. You said a random country should never be able to take the capital from a great power, so I'm giving you an example of a random country taking the capital from a great power where it makes sense. Your general statement being wrong isn't changed by you ignoring examples where it is wrong.

 

[Al-Khalidi]

I'm not making any comparison, and it is in fact quite relevant. You said a random country should never be able to take the capital from a great power, so I'm giving you an example of a random country taking the capital from a great power where it makes sense. Your general statement being wrong isn't changed by you ignoring examples where it is wrong.

Now you deliberately ommit the word "European" from my first comment about Great Powers, I wonder why?
Again, any war between confederates and union is more of a civil war in this regard. You should use an example of Mexico annexing Washington instead.

 

[The Goldfinch]

I mostly mean after a successful Confederate secession since a secessionist revolt probably doesn't have much ability to add wargoals besides independence.

So rather, there could be some specific "same culture", "nationalism" and etc mechanic instead of some america specific example determining other completely different parts of the world

the progress of the war regarding France maybe capitulating Sardinia or Switzerland before losing and capitulating to the other powers involved

In case of them "capitulating" others first wargoal to press should be to nullify results of said capitulation

exactly who they're ceding Paris to

As I said there could be some culture specific modifier, but apart from that there is no european historical precedent of a state ceding its capital before losing other possessions

 

[Spartakusbund]

Errr... Who exactly is freaking out here? I just see people having a discussion about what they have seen in the AAR.


It makes just as much sense as Belgium taking Paris with spanish and prussian support (zero).

Belgium doesn’t border Paris. It would need to take multiple states in addition to the one Paris is in. That doesn’t apply to Bavaria. Bad comparison.

We're talking about Great Power's capital here. It would be bad if in the result of bad decisions taken in regard to a diplomatic play about Benin, the British could lose London to French.
Punishments for annexing a Great Power's capital should be crippling infamy and huuuge unrest in the annexed region. Those punishments should be so huge that jo one should be willing to take such step unless already being utterly self sufficient.

If Britain very badly lost a war that started out of a diplomatic play over Benin, then yes I could see that happen. The AI shouldn’t be so aggressive that that kind of thing happens anything close to often, though. France should not so cavalierly demand London, either.

I don’t see the need to treat a capital region as special. Britain will already be highly incentivized to go to war to take it back, and France will already take penalties if it tries to rule over it. No need to heap on extra just because an early Dev build where the AI is purposefully hyper-aggressive lead to some weird outcomes.

 

[Baneslave]

On taking capital state:

Capital state being taken should definitely require more "points" and justification than other states, but I don't see reason to give any particular penalties for taking it if the taking itself is justified.

Unified Scandinavia (+ Finland) taking St. Petersburg makes sense, as it is literally on the border and on the way of uniting Baltic ocean. Ottoman losing to Constantinople if it is their last state on European side of the strait makes sense too. Unified Germany taking Austrian state from Austria because they are uniting all the Germans as well.

But yeah, it should definitely not be common.

 

[The Goldfinch]

Belgium doesn’t border Paris.

So imagine Belgium taking two states from France, Paris being one of them. Crazy, I know, but we just discussed Vienna changed for Zurich.

 

[The Goldfinch]

But yeah, it should definitely not be common.

I would start with, a state would never cede its capital until its completely powerless. Habsburg Austria would basically cease to exist after losing Vienna.

 

[wilcoxchar]

On taking capital state:

Capital state being taken should definitely require more "points" and justification than other states, but I don't see reason to give any particular penalties for taking it if the taking itself is justified.

Unified Scandinavia (+ Finland) taking St. Petersburg makes sense, as it is literally on the border and on the way of uniting Baltic ocean. Ottoman losing to Constantinople if it is their last state on European side of the strait makes sense too. Unified Germany taking Austrian state from Austria because they are uniting all the Germans as well.

But yeah, it should definitely not be common.

Yeah, it shouldn't be happening all the time, but there are certainly plenty of situations where it would make sense that it shouldn't have a particular lock or harsh penalty just for being the capital state.

 

[Spartakusbund]

So imagine Belgium taking two states from France, Paris being one of them. Crazy, I know, but we just discussed Vienna changed for Zurich.

I think it would be more states than just two. Belgium would have to demand all of them in the same diplomatic play, and it’s infamy would be insanely high. Probably enough to trigger subsequent containment diplomatic plays.

 

[wilcoxchar]

I would start with, a state would never cede its capital until its completely powerless. Habsburg Austria would basically cease to exist after losing Vienna.

Considering it's likely they capitulated in that war to lose Vienna in the first place and that shortly after they got beaten again by France and Wurttemberg, it sounds like they were completely powerless.

 

[Spartakusbund]

I would start with, a state would never cede its capital until its completely powerless. Habsburg Austria would basically cease to exist after losing Vienna.

Not sure I agree with your geography there, Goldfinch. Austria is pretty big. Losing Vienna would hurt it (and, again, should not happen so easily when the AI hasn’t had its aggressiveness dialed up to 11) but it’s still got a lot of other land.

 

[Al-Khalidi]

Belgium doesn’t border Paris. It would need to take multiple states in addition to the one Paris is in. That doesn’t apply to Bavaria. Bad comparison.

If Britain very badly lost a war that started out of a diplomatic play over Benin, then yes I could see that happen. The AI shouldn’t be so aggressive that that kind of thing happens anything close to often, though. France should not so cavalierly demand London, either.

I don’t see the need to treat a capital region as special. Britain will already be highly incentivized to go to war to take it back, and France will already take penalties if it tries to rule over it. No need to heap on extra just because an early Dev build where the AI is purposefully hyper-aggressive lead to some weird outcomes.

Ofcourse taking someone's capital shouldn't be blocked - I don't mean that if you take London as French the game crashes and blocks you indefinitely from playing.
It just should have such terrible consequences (infamy, revolts) that only a super powerful self sufficient empire could be doing such things, perhaps at the very end of the game.

 

[Sapa Inca]

I actually like the idea of the USA ending up a Latin American style basketcase some of the time. Makes the game more dynamic.

Yes, but AI USA becoming a monarchy just 5 years in game shows that something is very wrong with the political starting conditions of the country, in 1836 we had any serious USA monarchist movement? Any interest group was against the republic? So, how the country became a monarchy?

 

[wilcoxchar]

Yes, but AI USA becoming a monarchy just 5 years in game shows that something is very wrong with the political starting conditions of the country, in 1836 we had any serious USA monarchist movement? Any interest group was against the republic? So, how the country became a monarchy?

Yes, it's called the game being in development and the AI behavior being not finalized and for many things, altered so they can test systems out.

 

[shoebird]

I don’t see such a big problem with a country losing its capital after a crippling defeat, but I see a problem with the results of this specific war. Austria been defeated hard enough to lose its capital and still getting its main casus belly is strange. And the fact that Swiss’s allies fail to defend Switzerland from Austria and yet get Vienna from Austria is even more strange. I know this is due to Switzerland capitulating but still. Prussia and Bavaria should get infamy just for not demanding Zurich back to Switzerland.

 

[Baneslave]

Yes, but AI USA becoming a monarchy just 5 years in game shows that something is very wrong with the political starting conditions of the country, in 1836 we had any serious USA monarchist movement? Any interest group was against the republic? So, how the country became a monarchy?

Someone was also trying to turn Papal States into Chiefdom, and that was a bug, so I would assume bug.

 

[Sapa Inca]

Yes, it's called the game being in development and the AI behavior being not finalized and for many things, altered so they can test systems out.

I hope that you are right and release version will have a more correct political situation at start date.

 

[The Goldfinch]

Considering it's likely they capitulated in that war to lose Vienna in the first place and that shortly after they got beaten again by France and Wurttemberg, it sounds like they were completely powerless

Not sure I agree with your geography there, Goldfinch. Austria is pretty big. Losing Vienna would hurt it (and, again, should not happen so easily when the AI hasn’t had its aggressiveness dialed up to 11) but it’s still got a lot of other land.

What I mean is, Austria would sooner give away literally everything else they have, rather than Vienna. And other negotiators would and should know it.

Imagine, say, France annexing London because the British made some ill calculated play. Come on, I think everyone agrees this should not happen, unless its some very specific thing, like national unification, or a failed state breaking apart.

 

[Baneslave]

What I mean is, Austria would sooner give away literally everything else they have, rather than Vienna. And other negotiators would and should know it.

Imagine, say, France annexing London because the British made some ill calculated play. Come on, I think everyone agrees this should not happen, unless its some very specific thing, like national unification, or a failed state breaking apart.

Ehh, depends on the capital, IMO.

True, Austria losing Austria should end Austria.

But Russia giving up on St. Petersburg makes sense, and Russian state would probably survive by moving to Moscow instead.

Similarly Germany, if it got overwhelmed from the East and lost East Germany and Berlin, could survive as some kind of German state.