AA, Flak Power

[unmerged(32729)]

Hi All,

Just started playing HOI, coming from Victoria and EUII, and I have a question I haven't been able to find in the manual; apologies if it's obvious and I just missed it. What, exactly, does flak power do? I'm assuming it increases the effectiveness of provincial AA. If this is so, how does the AA affect air-to-ground combat? The manual says only that each level of AA gives a 10% chance of causing 1-10% strength damage to each attacking unit, with a chance for the attackers to avoid that damage if they have "modified air defense points." I guess I'd like to know what a modified air defense point is, too

I'm currently holding off the SU in the winter war, just absorbing several bombing runs per week. I've built AA up to level 5 or so in my border provinces, and have several flak power increasing inventions, but I really can't tell if it's helping or not. In general, is AA worthwhile?

Thanks,
John

 

[Pro_Consul]

AA points in a province perform attacks against enemy planes which pass over or bomb the province. More AA points mean more chances to score damage against the planes. A number of technologies in the artillery, electronics and fighter tech trees improve the ability of AA emplacements to score damage.

As for the effect on air-to-mud combat, AA fires once every hour that bombing occurs, so a bombing run that lasts 5 hours will give the AA five shots at the planes doing the bombing. Also, IIRC, AA fires before the planes attack each round, so AA fire reduces the strength of the attacking planes before they get a chance to drop their bombs.

The "modified air defense points" phrase refers the unit statistic labelled "ground defense" on air units. For example, a tac bomber may show a ground defense value of 8. This is analogous to the defense factor as it is used in ground combat. "Air defense" is used to calculate defensive strength in air-to-air combat when the planes are attacked by enemy planes. Likewise, the "ground defense" is used in the same manner to calculate defensive strength in air-to-mud action when the planes are being fired on by province AA or by ground units' AA. Without getting into the math, higher ground defense means a greater chance to avoid taking damage from an otherwise successful AA attack roll.

Note: the major difference between province AA (referred to in the tech tree as "Flak") and the air attack value of ground units is that province AA fires both at planes executing ground attacks in the province and at planes merely flying over the province. Ground unit AA only fires when the units themselves are being bombed.

And to answer you last question, i.e. is AA worthwhile...that is a matter of some dispute. Personally I find it worthwhile, but only when raised to level 8 or higher. Below that level the damage it inflicts is too easy to absorb and/or avoid. But level 10 flak not only inflicts measurable damage, it also dissuades the enemy from attempting to strategically bomb that particular province. For example, when I play Germany I always improve the AA of Berlin to 12, and the Ruhr provinces (Koln and Essen) to at least level 10 (as well as several other high IC or high resource provs). These level 10+ provinces almost NEVER get strategically bombed, as the AI tends to prefer to hit the softer but less profitable targets. To date, no matter what country I play, I have never had a level 10+ AA province get nuked, either.

 

[unmerged(32729)]

Thanks for all the good info. I have level 5-6 in most of my border provinces now, and 10 in Viipuri, where the Soviets seem to most enjoy bombing me. They aren't doing any significant damage to my units, but I haven't been able to destroy any bomber units either, though I do see them dropping to str < 20 some of the time. I was even able to take Murmansk with mountaineers, and hold it for about a year. Unfortunately, as August 1941 rolled around, they decided to get serious and send nearly a million troops. That's it for me! I think I'll try a bigger nation now.

John

 

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If you are playing Finland, that's a different question than if you are playing a country like Germany. When you build province AA, you lose some IC for three months up to level 10. The loss is one half the province IC capped at 10. If you instead had that IC, you could do more research for inf or arty or build more inf units. Which would be better? For Finland it doesn't seem to me that province AA would help much while more units or more research would help more.

You need to look at any province improvements with this question in mind: What else am I forgoing when I lose some IC due to these province improvements?

 

[Pro_Consul]

If you are playing Finland, that's a different question than if you are playing a country like Germany. When you build province AA, you lose some IC for three months up to level 10. The loss is one half the province IC capped at 10. If you instead had that IC, you could do more research for inf or arty or build more inf units. Which would be better? For Finland it doesn't seem to me that province AA would help much while more units or more research would help more.

In general I agree with this. But from experience I can say that one province worth upgrading to 10+ level AA is Viipuri. The Sovs love to bomb the crap of this one until they take it, but the key to defending Finland is to not let them have it. Therefore you need to be able to withstand the bombing and the ground attack. Since basically all of the Soviet attention will be focused on bombing this one province, however, you would be well served to do as John suggests and keep your IC moving in other provinces you might have been upgrading AA in.

On a side note, it is a good idea to NOT upgrade infrastructure in those border provinces with 20 infra. They make a great buffer against the Sovs as-is, but with higher infra they give the Sovs a good back door into your territory. (But you prolly already figured that out based on what you were saying about your last game.)

 

[unmerged(32729)]

On a side note, it is a good idea to NOT upgrade infrastructure in those border provinces with 20 infra. They make a great buffer against the Sovs as-is, but with higher infra they give the Sovs a good back door into your territory. (But you prolly already figured that out based on what you were saying about your last game.)

I'm a little unclear on what exactly infrastructure does. I know low infrastructure kills off troops (but not your own, it seems), as I had to keep expeditionary forces down in the south of the country for their health. Why do you say the low infra provinces are a good buffer? Simply because the Soviets will suffer attrition in crossing them? Or are they slow to cross, also?

As a matter of more general strategy, it seemed in my now finished game that the key was holding them at the border was set defense, entrenchments, terrain and hopefully weather. I was able to get about 10 units in Viipuri, and 3-4 on other border provs, which deterred attacks until they had truly overwhelming force. Once even one part of the border was penetrated, it was over fairly quickly, as I just didn't have enough forces for real counterattacks. Was I missing some clever idea? Would it have been better to set my defense inside the border and let the Soviets sit in the low infra provinces?

John

 

[unmerged(17617)]

I'm a little unclear on what exactly infrastructure does. I know low infrastructure kills off troops (but not your own, it seems), as I had to keep expeditionary forces down in the south of the country for their health. Why do you say the low infra provinces are a good buffer? Simply because the Soviets will suffer attrition in crossing them? Or are they slow to cross, also?

It's both actually. The Infralevel of a province determines at which speed you can move into a province. Since movements costs org., the longer it takes for the Soviets to move into a province, the less org. they will have on arrival. And IIRC you also loose additional strength if you attack into a lowinfra province (<34?) ontop of the losses incurred in combat, even if you have a landconnection. They won't loose strength if they are simply moving into it because of the landconnection.

As a matter of more general strategy, it seemed in my now finished game that the key was holding them at the border was set defense, entrenchments, terrain and hopefully weather. I was able to get about 10 units in Viipuri, and 3-4 on other border provs, which deterred attacks until they had truly overwhelming force. Once even one part of the border was penetrated, it was over fairly quickly, as I just didn't have enough forces for real counterattacks. Was I missing some clever idea? Would it have been better to set my defense inside the border and let the Soviets sit in the low infra provinces?

One tactic I used as Finland (It is also useful for other small nation) was to put several divisions into the strategic redeployment que and move them into a province as soon as I noticed that the AI was launching an attack. This caused the AI to break of the attack in most cases since the numbers no longer add up, and you can put them into SR again. Although it is a bit of a gamey tactic, you can postpone an invasion almost indefinitely this way.

 

[Pro_Consul]

And IIRC you also loose additional strength if you attack into a lowinfra province (<34?) ontop of the losses incurred in combat, even if you have a landconnection. They won't loose strength if they are simply moving into it because of the landconnection.

From playing the Sovs many times I can say that the forces will indeed lose strength, starting after they arrive in the 20 infra provs. I generally put forces there and then pull back when attacked, thus luring in larger forces who are then stranded for all practical purposes. I say stranded, because the AI will not retreat his forces back out and give up the province unless I counterattack and force it on him, and with the org and strength losses he suffers he cannot mount a successful attack from these provs. But like I said, I still initially deploy forces there because often the Sovs simply refuse to attack them at all, at least as long as the more tempting target of Viipuri is still in my hands.

One tactic I used as Finland (It is also useful for other small nation) was to put several divisions into the strategic redeployment que and move them into a province as soon as I noticed that the AI was launching an attack. This caused the AI to break of the attack in most cases since the numbers no longer add up, and you can put them into SR again. Although it is a bit of a gamey tactic, you can postpone an invasion almost indefinitely this way.

I do this, too, and I do not consider it at all gamey. The Soviets practiced this for real in WWII, keeping reserve formations in rail centers behind the front, with their heavy equipment already loaded into rail cars parked on sidings. They would not move out until just before they were needed at the front, so the Germans would have little or no opportunity to detect the move before the troops arrived. It also allowed them to respond quickly to operational opportunities. Basically this is the same thing. Units in SR are basically asssumed to be in rail transit mode awaiting an order on where to go. Once such an order is given, it should only take a couple of days at most to get there. The game fudges this a bit but compensates by reducing their org by half, so they will have to sit in place on arrival before they are fully up to snuff.