A yet another balkan history thread;Bosnia

[perhat]

Now you are calling me a nationalist.Great.
And you say that's how it was.Give me another source other than wikipedia,a book or something that says that all bosnians were bogumils.

I see that you are from bosnia so you should have no trouble reading this:

Tokom kasnog srednjeg vijeka Crkva bosanska je egzistirala sa katoličkom crkvom.

Dio otpora Crkve bosanske je vjerovatno bio vezan sa politikom; tokom 14. vijeka katolička crkva je smjestila Bosnu pod mađarskim biskupom i moguće je da je jedan motiv za šizmu bila želja za nezavisnost od Mađarske dominacije. Nekoliko bosanskih vladara su bili krstjani, ali neki od njih su prihvatili katoličanstvo zbog političkih razloga.

Ranije se je smatralo da su krstjani masovno prešli na Islam zbog progona katoličke i pravoslavne crkve. No, danas neki historičari smatraju da je Crkva bosanska bila skoro nestala za vrijeme dolaska Osmanlija 1463. godine.

The Bogomils spread westwards and settled first in Serbia; but at the end of the 12th century Stefan Nemanja, Great Župan of Serbia, expelled them from the country. Large numbers took refuge in Bosnia, where they were known under the name of Patarenes or Patareni. There, they were also brought into connection with the indigenous Bosnian Church, which was also considered heretical by the Pope and Byzantines, but was not actually Bogomil in nature

 

[TimurLank]

Pope even organised crusades against Bosnia, isn't that enough proof of Bosnia not being catholic? And "neki historicari" reffers to Croatian historician.

 

[perhat]

Pope also organized crusades against Zadar,against Constantinople etc which also were Christian cities.
Also the Magyars not the Pope organized Crusades against Bosnia,but not for religious but for political reason because they wanted to conquer Bosnia using a crusader cassus belli by claiming that the country was heretical

 

[TimurLank]

Can you tell me what was the reason of crusade against Bosnia ?
Edit: Well that explanation is just like any other ... so can you tell me why Croatians are Catholics ? God spoke to them as a chosen people, or they just had some benefits from it ?

 

[perhat]

Why are we catholics?Because our ancestors converted to the religion.Nothing else.Isnt this a little offtopic

 

[DanubianCossak]

I think ur problem perhat is that ure obviously reading "some" history that was written by Croat sources. Now being Serb myself, and living trough the "merry 90's" i can tell u this much: After "Drug Stari" (aka Tito) died all these nationalist little fascists who were repressed and labeled "regressive elements" for some good 50 years suddenly surfaced, and since then u have this tendency of every nation creating, adjusting or manipulating history - usually to justify their own need for territorial expansion. There are examples in Serbia, in Bosnia, and yes, even in Croatia. So, depending whos "ranks" u belong to, u can find some truly science fiction "sources", but remember, propaganda is propaganda, everyone did and does it.

Now to my mind, people living in medieval Bosnia were part Serbs part Croats, at some points those lands were held by Serb rulers, at others by Croat, but i dont think u can define Bosnia as a whole as either one, as they both existed. Since that people doesnt exist any more (we are today 3 different nations fighting for our own interests) we dont really have any evidence, as the dominant people in Bosnia today will not identify themselves with either Serbs or Croats, but as a third independent nation - Bosniaks whos main distinctiveness is basically their religion.

So imo the best way to avoid any further fights over this issue is basically making Bosnia their own culture, which isnt that far from reality, the alternative to this is a discussion in which every side will come with their sources and claims on this village and that village, but we will never have any conclusion.

And yes, i do agree with u, Croatia should be in PU with Hungary not fully anexed and cored land owned by Hungary.

 

[Slavyan]

"Bosnian" is a modern term, created with the destruction of Yugoslavia in order to give legitimacy to the new founded secessionist state of Bosnia and Herzegovina. There were no "Bosnian" people in 1399, they viewed themselves as Serbs, and their religion was mostly Orthodox, not Catholic. If you think I'm lying, then why did Tvrtko I crowned himself at the grave of St.Sava in the monestary of Mileševa(Serbia). He was also the nephew of Цар Душан (Tzar Dušan) who was an Serbian emperor. Or why did for instance Стефан Вукчић Косача(Stefan Vukčić Kosača) who ruled after Tvrtko I described himself as "Duke of Saint Sava, lord of Hum and Primorje, Grand Duke (Herzog) of the Kingdom of Bosnia"

Or how about Byzantine emperor Constantine VII who lived in the tenth century and wrote in his "De administrando imperio", that Bosnia was a part of the "orthodox baptised Serbia". Or were all of them bribed by someone to make this up? I think not.

So Paradox made a right decision to represent Bosnia in game as Orthodox and Serbian culture. Any further discussion about this subject would be pointless.

 

[unmerged(216459)]

When a nationalist sentiment arises in a nation, a common story is created for all the people of the nation. The duty of this narrative is to bridge the gap between tribes, clans, feudalistic and paternalistic groups and form a unitarian nation.

These stories are very flattering to the soul and character of the newborn nation, they tell stories of great deads and unjust treatment, vile backstabbing of and eventually the moral superiority of the New Nation.

This happened to the British, to the French, to the Germans, to The Hungarians, to the Poles, to the Bulgarians, to the Greeks to the Turks, to The Russians and so did to the Serbs and Croatians and Bosniaks as well.

This is taught in schools, rehearsed and played upon by politicians for decades an centuries.

This is a stage of development. It forms the ideological brackets that supports protectionism, national capital, national institutions, paternalism etatism, national uniformisation, militarisation, industrialisation and imperialism. The so called "isms".

Most Western nations got passed beyond this thanks to development, to us lagging nations beyond the Elbe it is a tad more tricky.

Since the age of nationalism came late for us, and our national states were formed even later and ever since that, they were bloodily contested, the spirit of nationalism still lurks around.

Believe me every Serb Hungarian, Bosniak, Bulgarian Greek, Turk can repeat a veeery similar story with completely different outcome often while talking about the very same events!

Now, they can't be all right, right? And if they were led by a chauvinistic irredenta ideology, what makes you sure you are right?

Let me help you on this one: You are wrong as well. Not necessarily about historical facts, history is just a tool to convey the chauvinistic message: We are morally above The Others, and/or to directly support claims on Them.

You cite bosnafication. The slovaks cite magyarification, we cite romaniaficiation?(is that even a word? and germanification) to supporthistorical claims and they are all nothing but desperate attempts to justify a cloudy animosity against and sense of superiority over the respective rivals.

Which is a bad intention. In fact an evil intention as it has been long used by opportunistic dictators to stir up hatred and support for conquest.

As a Croat you should know that.

As a man of good will, one should refuse to lend themselves to be the tools of these destructive thoughts. You know how many have died because of this hatred, how many jews, serbs, croats, bosniaks, greecs, hungarians etc etc etc have died on the hands of nationalism. People die by the millions for nothing but the empty sense of superiority while the only ones who really benefit from it are industrialists, politicians and trash who use nationalism as a leverage against people. Quite often against their own. It is against everything we hold dear, against all the Christian churches let it be orthodox bosnian, bogumil or catholicism. Don't be a part of it.

Anyone who claims unjustice on the hands of rival nation's hands and not uses it as an example of the travesty of demagougism but to justif vengence doesn't really care about the injustices at all, it just uses the past's travesties as an excuse to repeat them. How hypocrite.

I am not saying you are one of them, but you are certainly on a path that can lead there. I strongly urge you to rethink your position.

Keep it in mind : the real enemy is animosity.

Best wishes,
Panda from Magyaristan

 

[TimurLank]

I think ur problem perhat is that ure obviously reading "some" history that was written by Croat sources. Now being Serb myself, and living trough the "merry 90's" i can tell u this much: After "Drug Stari" (aka Tito) died all these nationalist little fascists who were repressed and labeled "regressive elements" for some good 50 years suddenly surfaced, and since then u have this tendency of every nation creating, adjusting or manipulating history - usually to justify their own need for territorial expansion. There are examples in Serbia, in Bosnia, and yes, even in Croatia. So, depending whos "ranks" u belong to, u can find some truly science fiction "sources", but remember, propaganda is propaganda, everyone did and does it.

Now to my mind, people living in medieval Bosnia were part Serbs part Croats, at some points those lands were held by Serb rulers, at others by Croat, but i dont think u can define Bosnia as a whole as either one, as they both existed. Since that people doesnt exist any more (we are today 3 different nations fighting for our own interests) we dont really have any evidence, as the dominant people in Bosnia today will not identify themselves with either Serbs or Croats, but as a third independent nation - Bosniaks whos main distinctiveness is basically their religion.

So imo the best way to avoid any further fights over this issue is basically making Bosnia their own culture, which isnt that far from reality, the alternative to this is a discussion in which every side will come with their sources and claims on this village and that village, but we will never have any conclusion.

And yes, i do agree with u, Croatia should be in PU with Hungary not fully anexed and cored land owned by Hungary.

+100. Exactly my point.

 

[perhat]

Hallelujah.Exactly what i am saying!

I think ur problem perhat is that ure obviously reading "some" history that was written by Croat sources. Now being Serb myself, and living trough the "merry 90's" i can tell u this much: After "Drug Stari" (aka Tito) died all these nationalist little fascists who were repressed and labeled "regressive elements" for some good 50 years suddenly surfaced, and since then u have this tendency of every nation creating, adjusting or manipulating history - usually to justify their own need for territorial expansion. There are examples in Serbia, in Bosnia, and yes, even in Croatia. So, depending whos "ranks" u belong to, u can find some truly science fiction "sources", but remember, propaganda is propaganda, everyone did and does it.

Now to my mind, people living in medieval Bosnia were part Serbs part Croats, at some points those lands were held by Serb rulers, at others by Croat, but i dont think u can define Bosnia as a whole as either one, as they both existed. Since that people doesnt exist any more (we are today 3 different nations fighting for our own interests) we dont really have any evidence, as the dominant people in Bosnia today will not identify themselves with either Serbs or Croats, but as a third independent nation - Bosniaks whos main distinctiveness is basically their religion.

So imo the best way to avoid any further fights over this issue is basically making Bosnia their own culture, which isnt that far from reality, the alternative to this is a discussion in which every side will come with their sources and claims on this village and that village, but we will never have any conclusion.

And yes, i do agree with u, Croatia should be in PU with Hungary not fully anexed and cored land owned by Hungary.

 

[DanubianCossak]

Ok now im getting scared, a Serb, Bosnian and Croat actually Agree on something!!!

Omg this must be a first time in like 60 years...

Now lets join up and start a world conquest

 

[perhat]

"Bosnian" is a modern term, created with the destruction of Yugoslavia in order to give legitimacy to the new founded secessionist state of Bosnia and Herzegovina. There were no "Bosnian" people in 1399, they viewed themselves as Serbs, and their religion was mostly Orthodox, not Catholic. If you think I'm lying, then why did Tvrtko I crowned himself at the grave of St.Sava in the monestary of Mileševa(Serbia). He was also the nephew of Цар Душан (Tzar Dušan) who was an Serbian emperor. Or why did for instance Стефан Вукчић Косача(Stefan Vukčić Kosača) who ruled after Tvrtko I described himself as "Duke of Saint Sava, lord of Hum and Primorje, Grand Duke (Herzog) of the Kingdom of Bosnia"

Or how about Byzantine emperor Constantine VII who lived in the tenth century and wrote in his "De administrando imperio", that Bosnia was a part of the "orthodox baptised Serbia". Or were all of them bribed by someone to make this up? I think not.

So Paradox made a right decision to represent Bosnia in game as Orthodox and Serbian culture. Any further discussion about this subject would be pointless.

You cannot say that.The kings were catholic and that was a proven fact.Tvrtko was the firstborn child of Vladislav Kotromanić and Jelena Šubić, who were married at the Šubić's Klis Fortress (located in present day Croatia) during summer-long festivities open to the whole population. Tvrtko's father, Vladislav of Kotroman was the son of Stephen I, Ban of Bosnia, and Elizabeth of Serbia. Tvrtko's mother, countess Jelena Šubić was daughter of Croatian count George II Šubić from the noble Šubić family, and his wife.Refer to my image to which i think paradox should model bosnia as it should be in 1399.Today, some historians consider that he was crowned in Monastery of Mileševa, even though there is no evidence of that.

http://img232.imageshack.us/i/bosna.jpg/

EDIT: A while ago Timur Lenk you said that bosnians werent part descended from croats,and now you agree?What the?

 

[unmerged(216459)]

Ok now im getting scared, a Serb, Bosnian and Croat actually Agree on something!!!

Omg this must be a first time in like 60 years...

Now lets join up and start a world conquest

sure, everyone hates the hungarians Now lets discuss who does Bosnia realy belong to(evil smile)

 

[DanubianCossak]

http://img232.imageshack.us/i/bosna.jpg/

How about this? Its still in beta though:

sure, everyone hates the hungarians Now lets discuss who does Bosnia realy belong to(evil smile)

Dunno for the rest of ex-yu's, but sry to have to disappoint u, i dont really hold any grudge against Hungarians xD

 

[unmerged(33767)]

I believe the Balkans are too complex to accurately represent them in the game in a way that would please all of the parties involved. Let's face it, the province system of the EU simplifies the real world a lot. Since the Balkans are a puzzle of religion and nationalities, which often cross EU province borders, then an accurate representation would require a very large increase in the number provinces. This in turn would throw the balance of the game out of the window.

It is fairly well known that topics involving the Balkans always devolve into a flame war. So let us agree that Paradox has done the best job when compared to any other company recreating a historical game and simply enjoy it

 

[perhat]

@Danubian Kosak Great.I think that the provinces zahumlje usora and bosna should be croat while rama and hum should be serb.am i thinking correctly?
@ar7 yeah it did a great job compared to other games where i have seen croat belgrade and serb zagreb -.-.
i would like to see the developers reply to this thread

Cheers!

Also,i dont hate hungarians.
In Croatia we really like hungarins .Its like they have gone from our biggest enemy in the 19th century to one of our biggest friends in the 21th century.

 

[AlHasanAlbaghdadi]

Whats with all this balkan nationalism anyway

 

[Slavyan]

@perhat
And why would a catholic ruler want to be crowned in an orthodox monastery? That makes no sense.
Also you say its a proven fact? Who proved it?

We are talking about Bosnia here, not Croatia mate.
So regretfully your argument is invalid sir.

But I agree that more provinces should be added in the Balkans.

 

[perhat]

Whats with all this balkan nationalism anyway

We all had a big war 20 years ago and all the sides did bad things however the Chetniks(extreme nationalist) did the most crimes(genocide in croatia and bih).We are trying to forget that but we have a new generation (birth year '96,'97,'97 )which is now extremely nationalist and completely blind that other people are human too.

@perhat
And why would a catholic ruler want to be crowned in an orthodox monastery? That makes no sense.
Also you say its a proven fact? Who proved it?

We are talking about Bosnia here, not Croatia mate.
So regretfully your argument is invalid sir.

But I agree that more provinces should be added in the Balkans.

Dude u only got serb sources for the crowning.People say he was crowned in Visoko and that is supported by archeological research.And he was catholic because he (Tvrtko)negotiated with Serb King Vukašin Mrnjavčević to marry a cousin, the daughter of Grgur II Šubić to Vukašin's son, Young Serb King Marko. Marko was Orthodox Christian, so the Pope wasn't supportive of the marriage , so Tvrtko gave up of the idea.

 

[starwarsfan541]

If you really want to change the map and cultures mod it yourself or ask someone to.
PS If you give me a to do list I will attempt to make a mod for you.