A yet another balkan history thread;Bosnia

[perhat]

The thing that most annoyed me was that the kingdom of Bosnia was serb orthodox and you guys are claiming to have a historical game.You dont.Why:
1.The religion of most people in Bosnia was Catholic,the next group in size was the indigenous Krstjani group and then the orthodoxs in the Podrinje region and East Herzegovina.
2.The culture and religion of the bosnian kings and bans was close or the same to croatian and the religion was catholic.

I know its really boring with dealing with all us balkanites trying posting all these history threads but i really would like to play a game which is marketed as historical and is so.I dont want to start a flame war .Only with a mod i can have that(MEIOU)

EDIT:Also i have another complaint.Why does Hungary own croatia?Croatia should be in personal union with Hungary.God i havent played vanilla a long time...

 

[Sudaxe]

You can mod it your self. This change is highly insignificant anyway. You don't see my crying about how the eastern Baltic region is done pretty badly.

 

[perhat]

You can mod it your self. This change is highly insignificant anyway. You don't see my crying about how the eastern Baltic region is done pretty badly.

Yeah i can.But the game is marketed as historical so it should be historical.So i as a buyer and player shouldnt have to resort to modding to have a historic game.Im really looking forward to Divine Wind fixing this.And it is significant

 

[ForzaA]

Can't immediately find any decent sources on religion.. But the rulers seem to refer to themselves as King of Serbs, Bosnia etc. etc.

And we evidently disagree on the meaning of significance A two province (vasalised) minor having one or the other culture in the same group and one or the other religion in the same group is not particularly significant.
If there's good evidence for it, then it might be worth changing.. But I'm not sure if it's really the most efficient use of Paradox' time.

 

[AlHasanAlbaghdadi]

Yeah i can.But the game is marketed as historical so it should be historical.So i as a buyer and player shouldnt have to resort to modding to have a historic game.Im really looking forward to Divine Wind fixing this.And it is significant

Theres no completly historically accurate game, its impossible to make a game that looks exactly like real life, if you dont like something, you mod it ! paradox gave us a very easy to mod game so why dont you use that feature

 

[midget_roxx]

Urgh another Balkans thread. Why not create a super balkans like Yugoslavia but in 1399 that way everyone can be happy.

 

[perhat]

Can't immediately find any decent sources on religion.. But the rulers seem to refer to themselves as King of Serbs, Bosnia etc. etc.

And we evidently disagree on the meaning of significance A two province (vasalised) minor having one or the other culture in the same group and one or the other religion in the same group is not particularly significant.
If there's good evidence for it, then it might be worth changing.. But I'm not sure if it's really the most efficient use of Paradox' time.

1.Rulers refered to themselves as kings of Bosnia,Croatia,Slavonia,Dalmatia,Rascia and

Serbia​

.Stephen Tvrtko I's full title listed subject peoples and geographical dependencies, following the Byzantine norm.
2.The names of rulers.For example Stjepan.The name is not used in Serbian language and even

if​

used it would be Stepan.Just like Ivan and Jovan.
3.Herzegovina was part of the Split diocese and Bosnia was part of the Vrhbosna diocese(catholic.)
4.The first Croatian king Tomislav was crowned in Duvno signifying a big connection between Croatia and Bosnia.Why would a king crown himself in a foreign land?
5.One of the largest noble houses of Bosnia was the house of Hrvatinić.Sometimes they were able to install themselves as bans and kings of Bosnia.Not for long though.Their name is suggestive of their ethnicity(Hrvat=Croat).

Also im not saying that all of bosnia was croat.Maybe paradox guys could rearrange the provinces like this with the west one being croat and east serb.

http://img232.imageshack.us/i/bosna.jpg/

 

[Premu]

1.Rulers refered to themselves as kings of Bosnia,Croatia,Slavonia,Dalmatia,Rascia and

Serbia​

.Stephen Tvrtko I's full title listed subject peoples and geographical dependencies, following the Byzantine norm.

Well, it was quite common that titles of Kings were huge and contained a lot of different regions and parts of their empire (and sometimes even parts they didn't own) - although you could see their whole empire as one large entitity. For example:

"George the Third, by the Grace of God, King of Great Britain, France and Ireland, Defender of the Faith, etc."

In this example (like many others) the PU existed only formally - practically it was not an independent kingdom which happend to be under the same ruler. So for EU III, a PU would be not a good way to represent this.

 

[DanubianCossak]

TBH for me bigger issues is that Slovenes are considered Austrians (silly), Slovaks are supposed to be Hungarian (even more so) and Croatia has science fiction looking borders and size, province of Nis is Bulgarian, Belgrade is basically non existent, Kotor (Montenegro) should be one of the thriving naval cities etc etc etc...

Paradox doesnt really care about Balkans, which is probably the same about many areas of the world, but u cant really blame them.

As for Bosnia, if what u say is true, then most of the Bosnian ppl today would be Croats and Catholic, while in fact they are the least, living in same entity as Bosniaks.

 

[unmerged(25822)]

Most balkan threads are like "why this is like this and not like that , according to my books it should be this"

What Sudaxe posted , go edit your game as you like and leave the rest to do what the want .
No Vicky like pops = no historical accuracy

 

[perhat]

TBH for me bigger issues is that Slovenes are considered Austrians (silly), Slovaks are supposed to be Hungarian (even more so) and Croatia has science fiction looking borders and size, province of Nis is Bulgarian, Belgrade is basically non existent, Kotor (Montenegro) should be one of the thriving naval cities etc etc etc...

Paradox doesnt really care about Balkans, which is probably the same about many areas of the world, but u cant really blame them.

As for Bosnia, if what u say is true, then most of the Bosnian ppl today would be Croats and Catholic, while in fact they are the least, living in same entity as Bosniaks.

Hahahahah.Most of the people would be catholic?
Let me start.
1.Are you one of the people that think when croats came to croatia that superman picked them up and magically flew the over bosnia to herzegovina and dalmatia?
2.When the turks came,90% of the Croats in bosnia converted to islam because of harsh living conditions(cant have a horse,cant carry guns,harsh taxes,devshirme system)and culturally with the converted serbs evolved into a new nation the bosniaks.The other 10 % harsly struggled till the 19 century when almost the half of them emigrated to the USA.Then another blow came after WWII when partisans populated the major Bosnia Croat lands with Serbs (example Knin,98 % Croat 1939,90 % Serb 1991,99 % percent Croat 2001 after the bosnian croats emigrated to Knin).Then the most recent blow in 1991-1996 where a lot of them have been slaughtered in the Bosnian wars by the Serbs and Bosniaks and a lot emigrated to Croatia where they wouldnt be discriminated for their faith(trust me,i have a few Bosnian Croat friends,life is hard for a Croat in BIH,job discrimination,lower pay etc.)

Also to that dude above me,most of my sources are from wikipedia and from the catholic encylopaedia.Im fighting for historical accuracy

 

[tat1642]

croatian nationalism, so usual

 

[perhat]

Okay i give up.Mods close or delete this thread before it descends in a flame war.
And to the guy above,you dont know what nationalism is
The term you are looking for is irredentism,even thought it cannot be aplied to me

 

[SapientHomo]

Why does Hungary own croatia?Croatia should be in personal union with Hungary.

I don't know the demography well enough to comment on the rest of your post but there certainly is an argument for Croatia being in a personal union with Hungary until 1526.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Croatia_(medieval)#Union_with_Hungary
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatia#Personal_union_with_Hungary
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Croatian_history

 

[perhat]

At least someone at least acknowledges something i said.Thank you

 

[TimurLank]

Bosnian citizens including most of bans/kings were Bogumils, not Catholics.

 

[perhat]

No.

Quote from wikipedia "The bans and kings of Bosnia were Catholics during their reign, except for Stephen Ostoja who showed some interest in the Bosnian Church while he was on the throne. There were, however, several important noblemen who were Krstjani, such as Hrvoje Vukčić, the Radenović-Pavlović family, Sandalj Hranić, Stjepan Vukčić, and Paul Klešić. It was fairly common for the Holy See to have the Bosnian rulers renounce any relation to the Bosnian Church or even perform conversions, in return for support."

 

[TimurLank]

The religion of the original Slavic population of Bosnia and Herzegovina was mixed: there were Catholic and Orthodox Christians, but most of the indegenous population simply called themselves a "Good Christians" (Bosnian: Dobri Krstjani) and belonged to the indigenous Bosnian Church. This church was very similar to Catholicism and Orthodoxy but under a separate bishop, and it was accused by the Catholic and Orthodox authorities of being a dualist heresy and linked to the Bogomils (Patarens).

Here is another quote from wikipedia.

 

[perhat]

I dont believe in that.If the Bosnian church was that strong,it would at least leave some document or anything to prove its strenght and it would survive to today.

 

[TimurLank]

You don't have to believe , that's how it was. I know you'd love it more that Bosnian people were Croatian, but they weren't, sooner you and other nationalists get it , the better.