A Western Emperor

[Tommy4ever]

OK this probably shouldn't go in OT but I can't think of where else it should go.

This is for a CK AAR I'm doing (can't ask there as noone will answer me as I have few viewers ).

In the story the Holy Roman Emperor and over half of the Catholic world split from the Pope to form a new Church and Empire. The HRE is abolished and replaced with the Latin Empire/Emperor and the Catholic Church is traded in for the Latin Church.

I game the Pope falls on hard times as the Turks invade his personal lands and hammer him pretty badly. Then I got the 'Emperor event'. This is too good an opportunity to turn down but I don't know what to do.

What should this 2nd Imperial title be called?

HRE and Latin Emperor are out whilst Emperor of the West or something doesn't really work since my Empire is based in Jerusalem.

At first I thought that I should probably have the Western churches reunify in my storyline but would rather keep them seperate. So instead I invaded the Great Turk . Also can anyone think if it would be feasible for the two Churches to briefly reunify (they are very dogmatically different).

Anway I hope I can get some responses as I'm stumped and this could be very interesting for my AAR.


thanks,

 

[unmerged(173014)]

This is the response I got when I brought a CK/general Paradox game subject to the table:

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10722262&postcount=3

Beware!


You should call the empire; 'the Norse Trading Peoples Empire'

 

[Drachenfire]

There was the historical title and style of "Emperor of All Spain”, which historically was claimed by the kings of Leon, who held the “imperial city” of Leon, and later Toledo when it was conquered and held. In a CKII framework, I think it may be interesting to consider allowing titles to be created by players…. Under certin circumstances. Right now there is an “Emperor” trait for characters that maintain five kingship titles. Well, imagine the Duke of Austria is able to elevate his title to that of kingship rank, and hold the kingship titles of Bohemia, Croatia, Hungry, and some other title for maybe 200 years worth of generations, he may be able to create a “Emperor” title named after his dynasty maybe. But, this would require a matrix which would allow those realms held to be tracked and held to be retagged to the new tier.

 

[Grosshaus]

This is the response I got when I brought a CK/general Paradox game subject to the table:

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10722262&postcount=3

Beware!

No reason to beware here when posting in an appropriate forum and, most importantly, in appropriate manner.

 

[unmerged(173014)]

No reason to beware here when posting in an appropriate forum and, most importantly, in appropriate manner.

I posted that, when this thread was in the OT forum. It was subsequently moved.

 

[wobbit]

Nice AAR.

Possible title names: Emperor of all Christendom, Alberician Emperor (founder of the empire), Albonese Emperor (family name), Carolingian Emperor (lands are similar to those of the Carolingians and that's as good a family as any to claim a heritage from).

What do you mean by two churches? If you mean the one you've created and the pope, then no reason not to reunite them if you want to. If you mean the Orthodox and Catholic churches, then you can probably justify it if you conquer Constantinople. Just say you've appointed your own Patriarch and declare everyone who opposes him a heretic. There would be certain doctrinal difficulties, but you can hand wave that with overwhelming military force.

 

[Cèsar de Quart]

I would go for Holy Roman Emperor. Think about it: the Pope grants the Imperial title to who he thinks that will fit better his interests. And the Pope's interests are always three:

1) To expand Christianity through the neighbourhood, and if possible, the world.
2) To make the rebellious Emperors, Kings and sovereigns obey Rome.
3) To act as the armed arm of the Pope, respectin its supreme sovereignity, especially in spiritual matters

The last one is actually optional, because Alderic could force the Pope to crown him. It doesn't matter that someone has been already crowned. Christ gave Saint Peter the power of doing and undoing, and through him, by direct succession, every Pope recieved those powers.

Naturally, it's merely symbolic. However, it would rock to see Urban II or Innocent III with their holy powers, desintegrating Saracens and heterics like Terminator.

 

[Tommy4ever]

Some good ideas here.

However none of this has happened in the AAR yet. Schism happens in another 50 years or so and the new Emperor title in around 90 years IIRC.

Lands have changed in this time. Holy Roman Empire title gets retired after Schims between D'Albon lands and the Pope and is replaced by Latin Empire and Latin Church. They are perhaps as seperate as not quite as different as Orthodoxy and Catholic but still very different with the Emperor filling a the role of the Pope as the first among equals with Patriarchs. Basically there are 3 Christian Churches: Orthodox in Byzantium and Russia, Latin in D'Albon lands (plus a couple of additions later) and Catholic in traditionally Catholic regions that are not now Latin.

I ideally want something that implies power for the Latin Emperor over Catholic lands making either Western Emperor or HRE a pretty good fit but I've mentioned their problems in the OP.

I was also thinking about something like 'Vicegerent of Christ' (I've been reading Rome ARRisen ) this implies power over all Christians and could help develop a story about problems with the Greeks as the Byz Emperor has that title.

 

[Hawkeye1489]

Hey Tommy,
I've been reading your AAR and if I understand your direction correctly, then the HRE title will remain with the Kingdom of Jerusalem? If so, you could always use the Imperial Title for an "Empire of the Levant", "Emperor of the Latins", "Latin Empire of Jerusalem", or even "Emperor of the Latins in the East", all of which would be known colloquially as the Eastern Latin Empire or even the Levantine Empire. As for your new church, you could use the term Latin Church, but that is more closely associated with Roman Catholicism (Catholics worship according to the Latin Rite). You could instead focus upon similar themes as the Church will claim the necessary trappings of continued succession from Christ. Apostolic Church of the East, Latin Catholic Church of the East, or possibly even call it the Apostolic Catholic Church of the East or Levantine Catholic Church. Your best bet at this time is to not necessarily set the Emperor up as the head of the church, but elevate the Patriarch of Antioch as the Supreme Pontiff of the Church. While Rome claims to be the See of Saint Peter, Antioch also makes that Claim. If you did this, you could always refer to the new branch of Christianity as the Antiochene Catholic Church. Just my two cents, and definitely a good read.

Cheers,
~Hawk