A Thought about Naval Experience

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Porkman

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Reading the DD and seeing as how we only have 4 different model years for each naval vessel, I got to thinking about how to model the actual variation across time, country and within country in that context.

My thought was that Naval experience could be broken up into three levels.

General Experience: This is experience that can be used to build variants and upgrade all ships.

Type Experience: This is experience that can only be used on a certain type of ship. So destroyers, or submarines...

Model Experience: This is experience that could only be used on a given year and type of ships so "1923 destroyers," for example.

All of this experience can be combined to make variants.

When you research the requisite tech, the game should give you a little bit of Model experience for free. You can use it to upgrade your basic type a little bit or just save production cost and leave it as is.

In this way, a Japanese 1944 Destroyer will probably be different from a British 1944 Destroyer even though both countries researched the same 1944 Destroyer tech.

Now ships who are fighting would gain all three types of experience.

This accomplishes several things.

1) It prevents a Submarine to Aircraft carrier research pipeline.

The production system helps with this too, but, in this way, it makes it so Navies can't just accumulate a whole bunch of experiience with destroyers and then use it to build a super advanced carrier. They could always apply their general experience to making carrier variants, but it won't be as cost effective as the current system makes it.

2) It gives the players a real and historical status quo bias.

Navies of the time didn't radically change doctrine. The US is perhaps the only one that did, and only because Pearl Harbor sank the battleships, forcing them to focus on carriers and sub warfare vs. Japan.

With this system, most of the Naval experience that players will accrue will be Type Experience and Model Experience. Players who switch up from the old to the new model will have a reason not to beyond just the production cost. They will face the real historical challenge of the loss of skill and technical ability when switching to a new type or model.

3) The player is incentivized to build and use low tech models of the naval vessels.


One of the things I predict is going to happen is that players are going to tech rush to get to 1939-1941 naval vessels early and then only build those. Earlier models won't be built and early variants won't be made because people will want to save all of their Naval Experience for building the optimal Aircraft Carrier in 1941.

But that's not how it worked. A lot of the experience that Navies got was only useful for fixing problems with an existing class or type of ship.

By forcing players to leave some experience on the table when switching, there will be more of an incentive to build and improve earlier models. It could lead to things like a British player continuing production of 1923 Fleet destroyers, only this is a much upgraded model that's been optimized for ASW. Heck, maybe do the same for carriers and you have tiny 1923 carriers that have been optimized for coastal attack or sub hunting.

4) It incentivizes diversifying early as well.

If a player wants to have an amazing carrier fleet or sub fleet in 1941, they will be helped if they start building and using them early since that will build their Type and General Experience.

5) It will make national fleets unique and varied.

This system will help make it so each country has the historical situation of 2-3 types of 1941 cruiser, for example. The Model experience will give players an incentive to vary even within their own tech year.

There are, of course, numerous problems with the idea and this is more of a brain storm for future modders than a design of a core system, but I'm interested to hear what people think.
 
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agus92

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Reading the DD and seeing as how we only have 4 different model years for each naval vessel, I got to thinking about how to model the actual variation across time, country and within country in that context.

My thought was that Naval experience could be broken up into three levels.

General Experience: This is experience that can be used to build variants and upgrade all ships.

Type Experience: This is experience that can only be used on a certain type of ship. So destroyers, or submarines...

Model Experience: This is experience that could only be used on a given year and type of ships so "1923 destroyers," for example.

All of this experience can be combined to make variants.

When you research the requisite tech, the game should give you a little bit of Model experience for free. You can use it to upgrade your basic type a little bit or just save production cost and leave it as is.

In this way, a Japanese 1944 Destroyer will probably be different from a British 1944 Destroyer even though both countries researched the same 1944 Destroyer tech.

Now ships who are fighting would gain all three types of experience.

This accomplishes several things.

1) It prevents a Submarine to Aircraft carrier research pipeline.

The production system helps with this too, but, in this way, it makes it so Navies can't just accumulate a whole bunch of experiience with destroyers and then use it to build a super advanced carrier. They could always apply their general experience to making carrier variants, but it won't be as cost effective as the current system makes it.

2) It gives the players a real and historical status quo bias.

Navies of the time didn't radically change doctrine. The US is perhaps the only one that did, and only because Pearl Harbor sank the battleships, forcing them to focus on carriers and sub warfare vs. Japan.

With this system, most of the Naval experience that players will accrue will be Type Experience and Model Experience. Players who switch up from the old to the new model will have a reason not to beyond just the production cost. They will face the real historical challenge of the loss of skill and technical ability when switching to a new type or model.

3) The player is incentivized to build and use low tech models of the naval vessels.


One of the things I predict is going to happen is that players are going to tech rush to get to 1939-1941 naval vessels early and then only build those. Earlier models won't be built and early variants won't be made because people will want to save all of their Naval Experience for building the optimal Aircraft Carrier in 1941.

But that's not how it worked. A lot of the experience that Navies got was only useful for fixing problems with an existing class or type of ship.

By forcing players to leave some experience on the table when switching, there will be more of an incentive to build and improve earlier models. It could lead to things like a British player continuing production of 1923 Fleet destroyers, only this is a much upgraded model that's been optimized for ASW. Heck, maybe do the same for carriers and you have tiny 1923 carriers that have been optimized for coastal attack or sub hunting.

4) It incentivizes diversifying early as well.

If a player wants to have an amazing carrier fleet or sub fleet in 1941, they will be helped if they start building and using them early since that will build their Type and General Experience.

5) It will make national fleets unique and varied.

This system will help make it so each country has the historical situation of 2-3 types of 1941 cruiser, for example. The Model experience will give players an incentive to vary even within their own tech year.

There are, of course, numerous problems with the idea and this is more of a brain storm for future modders than a design of a core system, but I'm interested to hear what people think.

An interesting approach. A lot of work, but doable in my opinion (Since the game will -supposedly- keep track of different experiences)
 

Axe99

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Love your thoughts Porkman (and also, as ever, love the colour-coding in your posts :)). I agree there's some benefit in terms of gameplay depth (but offset by an increase in gameplay complexity) in disaggregating experience types down a bit (for example, I'd love to split 'jet' and 'rocket' experience off from 'prop' experience, and also split bombers from single engine aircraft, but unless they're flying boats, then that's off-topic :)).

On the naval side of things (note for other readers - these ideas are all for mods, don't worry, we're not suggesting making the naval side of things overly complex in the base game :) ) :

- I think this would work particularly well if we could find a way to get refits and changes in design while under construction into the game. So, for example, your 1916 BB type experience (1916 used because if we're modding this in, I doubt we'll stick with the stock 'one tech slot for everything pre-game', but could be any year) is used to refit the QEs (and R-class, if enough experience available pre-war, but there probably wouldn't be). It could also be used to adjust models under construction for smaller ships (a number of runs of destroyers or submarines, for example, had improvements in the design as the run went on - particularly for classes that were built over a number of years).

- We'd probably need some kind of 'equipment experience overview' page added into the UI somewhere, so players could easily eyeball the experience they'd accrued for various types.

- We probably need some way of doing exercises for naval ships, like occurs with land units, so that experience can be accrued pre-war (particularly for nations like the US). I'm really keen to try and get this happening in any event.

- I really like how this will encourage diversification of national fleets, and give players more granularity and historically-appropriate challenges when building their navy.

- Would you be offended if I borrowed this idea for the naval mod I'm putting together? Full credit to be given of course, and no problem if you'd rather I didn't.
 
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agus92

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We'd probably need some kind of 'equipment experience overview' page added into the UI somewhere, so players could easily eyeball the experience they'd accrued for various types.

Yup, I think the UI will be one of your biggest enemy with this mod. The GUI should be able to cope with adding more ships and variants, but I don't think there's any window for experience.
 

Midden

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It might be useful to have an amount of experience to also to be used to unlock doctrines to research, (at the moment it seems doctrines are to easy to tech rush). Maybe some experience could be earned by just the act of building ships, ... this would encourage the building of 1936 tech ships.
 
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