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Lacost

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Why don't we tie the call for pizza .... ehrm ... the call for peace mechanic to this surrender mechanic.

As soon as the loosing party signs a surrender the winning party will get the call for peace. The winning party can demand any warscore and the looser will accept.


The winner can still proceed but he doesn't want to if he wants to maintain a low WE level himself.
 
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Republic of Mercury

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Well, when people voiced their concern about how Revanchism works in the dev diary they got slammed down for it. So let the people who created Revanchism explain how its supposed to work.
No, you said that revanchism was supposed to solve this. I'm asking you to explain yourself. I don't see how revanchism is at all related to occupying a country without accepting peace.
 

User4035

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No, you said that revanchism was supposed to solve this. I'm asking you to explain yourself. I don't see how revanchism is at all related to occupying a country without accepting peace.

In the revanshism thread the devs said revanchism is supposed to help a nation recover after a war. Others mentioned it would really do this. The devs either didn't respond or did the "no" response.

You don't see how its supposed to help? Neither does anyone else but the devs say its supposed to.
 

Republic of Mercury

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In the revanshism thread the devs said revanchism is supposed to help a nation recover after a war. Others mentioned it would really do this. The devs either didn't respond or did the "no" response.

You don't see how its supposed to help? Neither does anyone else but the devs say its supposed to.
This isn't about what happens after the war, this is about the war not ending in the first place. This is not the issue that revanchism is intended to solve.
 
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zsImmortal

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There's no real solution to it. Unless call for peace started having adverse effects (beyond WE) on the one sitting on someone else, we're getting in an endless spiral of changes. The fact is that making war costlier doesn't solve anything, at best it would only transfer problems to other aspects and not necessarily provide a better game.

I would be more than happy to be proven wrong however.
 

paulatreides0

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A possible solution: incur immediate "Call to Peace" malus upon reaching 100% warscore. Maybe the warscore needed to achieve it can be tweaked depending on the casus belli. That way you no longer can wage wars with sitting on 100% for months/years and breaking an enemy in that manner. If the normal CtP uptick is too slow, it could also start off rather high.

This would quickly make it damn-near impractical to just keep it going, since you would very quickly get your DP drained out of existence.

Besides, I think it makes sense. I doubt the majority of a country's populace would be happy with keeping a war going that is only sucking up national resources against an enemy who is already defeated and willing to give you everything they can.
 

ahyangyi

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Maybe we can generalize the stabhit system for both winning situations and losing situations:

1. everyone declares what peace deal clauses it wants in a war.
2. whenever a country receives an offer, if it either
a) values 40% + current warscore
b) includes all clauses the country wants
and it does not include anything the country doesn't want, the country must take it or take a stabhit.

It should also bring human players and the AI to the same ground when it comes to peace offers, which is probably a good thing.

EDIT: changes the value difference from 50% to 40% after reading TheMeInTeam's post. It could be adjusted further though, but I'm afraid 40% is actually about the right balance.
 
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TheMeInTeam

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A possible solution: incur immediate "Call to Peace" malus upon reaching 100% warscore. Maybe the warscore needed to achieve it can be tweaked depending on the casus belli. That way you no longer can wage wars with sitting on 100% for months/years and breaking an enemy in that manner.

You can inflict tremendous WE with < 50% war score, and there are ways to ensure it stays low while doing it. Are you going to give call for peace at sub-50% war score too? If so, based on what criteria, and wouldn't that allow inverted situations whereby the AI is forced into sitting on "call for peace" and racking up huge WE?
 

ahyangyi

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A possible solution: incur immediate "Call to Peace" malus upon reaching 100% warscore. Maybe the warscore needed to achieve it can be tweaked depending on the casus belli. That way you no longer can wage wars with sitting on 100% for months/years and breaking an enemy in that manner.
That will just lead to variant tactics like sieging everything but one fort down, and leave some mercenaries on it to prevent the defender from recruiting anything, but not actually enough to siege it down.
 
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zsImmortal

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A possible solution: incur immediate "Call to Peace" malus upon reaching 100% warscore. Maybe the warscore needed to achieve it can be tweaked depending on the casus belli. That way you no longer can wage wars with sitting on 100% for months/years and breaking an enemy in that manner.

You can only get 100% with full siege. They could just let one province be unsieged. So it's not like it solves anything. Making the warscore less than 100% makes it incredibly annoying when you can't get the WS required to get what you want in any small amount of time.
 

TheMeInTeam

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BTW, stabhit threshold used to be a flat 40% differential. Sometime near the AoW era (forget which patch, maybe just before) they stealth changed it to ~26% - WE for losing side, never documenting or confirming that change to my knowledge. In 1.12, the AI was given immunity to stability hits entirely with disingenuous reasoning cited. I doubt we'll see something resembling the first model again, and the AI shouldn't be refusing stabhit offers anyway.
 

Talar

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I think the trigger condition would rather have to be the loser surrendering unconditionally, translating into an auto-accept of any 100% (or below) peace deal from the victor.
 

ahyangyi

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BTW, stabhit threshold used to be a flat 40% differential. Sometime near the AoW era (forget which patch, maybe just before) they stealth changed it to ~26% - WE for losing side, never documenting or confirming that change to my knowledge. In 1.12, the AI was given immunity to stability hits entirely with disingenuous reasoning cited. I doubt we'll see something resembling the first model again, and the AI shouldn't be refusing stabhit offers anyway.
If that's the case I'd feel really bad. The AI refusing a stabhit offer is surely a sign of deeper problems in the code base.
 

boehm

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No, you said that revanchism was supposed to solve this. I'm asking you to explain yourself. I don't see how revanchism is at all related to occupying a country without accepting peace.

Revanchism is just symptom treatment - in reality for a long timeperiod of this game wars were NOT total wars of anihilation, but generally had either the goal of enforcing a personal union OR limited territorial gains. IMO it would make sense that refusing a peacedeal when the looser is willing to simply through in the towel and give 'everything' should impose a major spike in WE for the nation refusing peace and any rebels spawned in occupied frienly territory should be well "friendly" ... on that note, does anyone know if it is possible to use the support rebels function achieve this? (supported rebels are always allied right?)
 

paulatreides0

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You can inflict tremendous WE with < 50% war score, and there are ways to ensure it stays low while doing it. Are you going to give call for peace at sub-50% war score too? If so, based on what criteria, and wouldn't that allow inverted situations whereby the AI is forced into sitting on "call for peace" and racking up huge WE?

That will just lead to variant tactics like sieging everything but one fort down, and leave some mercenaries on it to prevent the defender from recruiting anything, but not actually enough to siege it down.

You can only get 100% with full siege. They could just let one province be unsieged. So it's not like it solves anything. Making the warscore less than 100% makes it incredibly annoying when you can't get the WS required to get what you want in any small amount of time.

That's a good point. Frankly, I think that the current system depends far too much on sieged territory for warscore, and should be far more flexible. It should incoporate things like income, debt, number of loans + ability to pay them back, manpower, sieged territory, and so on. This would mean that there'd be a lot more ways to bring up higher warscore than just sieging, and would avoid sieging-exploits.

Furthermore, it makes sense since, especially for big nations, the huge correlation between warscore and peace cost doesn't really make too much sense. What I mean to say is that a fully sized Ming would be far more "wiling" to lose 100% warscore worth of provinces than a Ming half that size, since they own more land and are more powerful and, as such, stand less to lose by losing that land (especially when faced with the alternatives like the nation falling apart due to being crippled). Thus it makes sense that if I want 5 provinces from a nation only 15 provinces big I would need to siege most of it, but why would i need to do that same for a nation hundreds of province large?

Furthermore, even for large nations, issues like gigantic outstanding debts and running out of manpower would be huge issues, perhaps far more so than losing some land as they endanger the long term survival of the nation. They not only make it internally more vulnerable, but also opens it up for more invasions and foreign subjugation.

Do you guys think a more dynamic way to get warscore would help matters?
 

Chlodio

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How did Lithuania go to bankrupt? Even if you're 100% occupied and dismiss everything you have no real expenses.

What if length of war would increase unrest? Occupied provinces would be harder keep under control and you would have send armies back to deal with your revolts.
 

Umega

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I've always thought of a "National Momentum" mechanic, but it kind of has a snowballing effect. A nation that completes missions, wins battles/wars gets an increase to there National Momentum which increases morale, stability cost reduction, prestige, legitimacy. But a country that loses wars, loses National Momentum and becomes internally weaker and if it gets negative National Momentum then the country will get decreased morale, prestige, legitimacy and costly stability cost.
 

ahyangyi

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I've always thought of a "National Momentum" mechanic, but it kind of has a snowballing effect. A nation that completes missions, wins battles/wars gets an increase to there National Momentum which increases morale, stability cost reduction, prestige, legitimacy. But a country that loses wars, loses National Momentum and becomes internally weaker and if it gets negative National Momentum then the country will get decreased morale, prestige, legitimacy and costly stability cost.
How does this help with the situation described in this thread, then?
 

Sigwald

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In our GPO we have a houserule against that (basically, once someone wants to surrender, you don't occupy more/stackwipe more of his armies).

But I know the devs are against houserules as they prefer to fix gameplay flaws. And they are goddamn right.