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wilcoxchar

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On a side note, it wasn't my fault they got Palermo, I was minding my own business and suddenly I noticed that Palermo is owned by an Englis count. Stupid inheritances that I don't profit from. :D

Anyway, I guess I have nothing left to complain about. Great job so far KoM.

EDIT: I found something else that bugs me, for the Emirate of Turkmens becoming the Ottomans, lately in my CK games before the Mongols get there (which is when I converted the game just to try out the converter) they have conquered much of European Russia so I had the Ottomans with their capital in Estland and owning much of Russia. Isn't there some other EU2 tag we could use for Turkmens?
 
Last edited:

King of Men

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Well, there are, unfortunately, a lot more CK tags than EU ones. However, the tag lists, and indeed all the softcoding, is due for a good going-over once the actual code is finished.

Now, the tagInfo.txt file has the following lines that include TUR :

Code:
OTTO;TUR;Ottoman
KAIR;TUR;Kairouan
LYKI;TUR;Lykia
RUMS;TUR;Rum
GERI;TUR;Germiyan
TURK;TUR;Turkmens
C737;TUR;Kaisereia
C741;TUR;Nikomedeia
C742;TUR;Prusa
C749;TUR;Dorylaion
C750;TUR;Nikaea
C752;TUR;Galatia
C753;TUR;Ankyra
C754;TUR;Sozopolis
C759;TUR;Ikonion
C760;TUR;Tyana

which, if my code is working properly, means that the Turkmens only become TUR if none of Ottoman, Kairouan, Lykia, Rum, and Germiyan exists as a primary title. Which should, I hope, be fairly unusual. But, well, if the Turkmens do manage to do so well as you describe - then ok, there is going to be a large Moslem nation stretching over a lot of Russia. It might as well be called the Ottoman Empire. Surely that's what CK is about, alternate histories?

On the other hand, if anyone has a good argument for why the Turkmens should be given some other EU tag, or for that matter a higher priority on the TUR tag, speak up now! Just please, do take a look through the tagInfo.txt file before you do, and make sure that the tag you suggest doesn't have some other extremely important nation attached to it already.
 

Sterkarm

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KOM, could you possibly explain how cultures (both for individual provinces and nations) are determined?
 

King of Men

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Certainly. The culture of an individual province is determined by the cultures of the CK provinces that go into it. For example, consider the EU province Iceland, consisting of the CK provinces Vestisland and Austisland. Now in real life both of these are highly likely to be Norwegian, but for the sake of argument we'll say that Vestisland is German instead.

When the converter is making the EU province Iceland, then, it looks at the CK provinces, and finds that there are two candidate cultures, namely scandinavian and german - note that the conversion to EU cultures is done before deciding who wins. If this weren't done, then Swedish and Norwegian would compete, even though they both translate to scandinavian in EU terms. It then counts up which of the candidates has the highest total cultural weight, which is calculated as the base wealth of the province, times the power of the nobles (whom I assume to be the main bearers of culture) times a modifier from the buildings it has (I'll softcode this modifier in a future version.) The culture with the most weight wins. Basically this means that, if you want a particular culture to prevail, you should convert the richest cities to that culture, and give the nobles in provinces with that culture lots of power; also build libraries, schools, templar houses, universities, monasteries, churches, theaters, palaces, roads, royal posts, and courts of justice. (Of course, most places are likely to have that list anyway by the end of the game, but I can't help that. :( )

The state cultures of a nation are a bit more complex, to say the least. There are three contributions : The CK provinces that are absorbed into the nation; the vassals it absorbs, and its ruler. Before I go on, let me say a bit more about this absorbing. As you know, there are not enough EU tags or provinces for all the counties of CK to have their own nation. Some CK vassals do get a nation of their own; usually these are powerful duchies. The ones that do not get a nation are absorbed into their overlords, which gets the CK provinces added to its list, and the rulers added to its culture.

So; the process for finding state cultures is similar to that described above for finding province cultures, but there can be more than one winner. As before, each candidate culture is given a weight; the weight of a province is the same cultural weight as before; the weight of a ruler is the sum of the culture weights of all the provinces in his demesne, times 0.3 if he is a Count, 0.5 for a Duke, and 0.8 for a King. (I can't remember if I softcoded this or not; if not, I shall assuredly do so.)

When all the cultures have been counted up, their weights are divided by the total, giving a number between 0 and 1. Any culture that has weight more than 0.3 - that is, at least 30% of all the cultures in the realm - becomes a state culture. (So you can have a max of three state cultures, if you have been extremely clever about balancing your vassals and provinces.) If there aren't any, you get the single most powerful culture as your one state culture.

I hope that answers the question? I think you can find a similar post, with examples and numbers and stuff, if you go back a few pages. Of course, it is entirely possible that this process has bugs; if you find any weird results, please tell me about them.
 

unmerged(21937)

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You could use Nogai for Turkmen. They occupy more or less same geographical area in their startup locations.
 

ulmont

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Can you talk a little bit more about how vassals are created?

I was playing a game as the Duke of Apulia (and many other duchies). I held something like 200 duke titles and had about 400 counts as vassals at 1271.

I somehow ended up saxon, holding no counties inside the Apulia area (holding Byzantion, Ile de France, Venezia, and Baghdad, IIRC).

When I export from CK to EU2 from the standard (beta) converter, I get mostly territories inside my domain, and only Bearn and Zeeland end up as vassals. In addition, Byzantium is my capital.

When I export from CK to EU2 from your converter, I get 49 vassals, most of which are larger than the amount of territory left in my direct control (Castile and France especially), and my capital is moved to Essex, which was not part of my personal desmense at all.

In addition, my core provinces now bear no relationship to anything useful.

I tried playing around with the misc.txt parameters for vassal merging, but from:

1;1
to
0;0

Only changes from 49 to 44 vassals of Apulia (0;1 doesn't seem to do anything at all).

-Richard Campbell.
 

King of Men

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I can expound on this, but I'll have to take a detour into how EU nations are created, first. It's like this. Each EU tag will exist if it is at all possible. This means that if a given Duke title is slated to become, say, Saxony, and you hold it, then a Count in that general area gets the chance of his life. Consider this extract from tagInfo.txt :

Code:
MEIS;SAC;Meissen
SAXO;SAC;Saxony
C254;SAC;Franken                             
C255;SAC;Thüringen                           
C311;SAC;Plauen                              
C312;SAC;Meissen

This is saying that if the Duchy of Meissen exists as a primary title, it becomes Saxony in EU2. If not, check for the Duchy of Saxony. If that doesn't exist either, check for county number 254, which apparently is Franken. And so on down.

Now, if Meissen does exist, what happens to Saxony? It is absorbed into the EU country of Saxony, along with those counties, if they should happen to be independent.

This simple procedure can be modified a bit by the unfortunate fact that there are only so many EU2 provinces to go around. Each EU2 province has several CK provinces; the nations that own these are considered candidates for ownership of the EU2 province. Each candidate is given a weight that's basically the sum of the wealth of the provinces they own, times some modifying factors for buildings and such. Highest weight wins - very simple. But, in order to give small nations a fighting chance to exist - because any nation that doesn't get any EU provinces gets chucked out of the conversion - I multiply the weight of a city by five if its owner has less than three CK provinces. (I also multiply by three if the owner is a duchy, and by five if it's a kingdom, since prestige is nine points of the law.)

The upshot of all this is, as you no doubt noticed, a bunch of minor nations all over the place. Some of these, of course, become your vassals. Let's look at Saxony again, and assume that the Duchy of Meissen exists. Then EU2 Saxony is your vassal if, and only if, CK Meissen was. CK Saxony is ignored for this calculation - unless Meissen doesn't exist, of course. In other words, vassalisation is determined by the status of the CK tag that actually got converted into the EU nation.

The profusion of minor nations is intentional; as I've remarked before, CK dynastic holdings are really quite different in kind from EU2's burgeoning nation-states. Take a look at the map of the Grand Campaign in 1419, especially France and Germany. Then note that those are unified nations in 1066 CK! Clearly, vassalship in CK is a much, much weaker concept than being actually annexed to the nation in EU, even though it makes the provinces appear in your colour.


Now, with all that said, I can examine your specific scenario. First, as the Duke of Apulia, you should have become the EU tag APU. Are you sure APUL was your primary title? Did you by any chance lose it at some point, and gain it back? If not, then I think I'd like a look at the save.

Second, about the crown lands. You will observe that you basically get your demesne, plus whoever is unlucky enough to be below you in the queue for your primary title - in your case, only the duchy of Calabria, which you no doubt owned anyway. Also, you may not get all your demesne, due to the aforementioned weighting in favour of small nations - this is especially pronounced when you haven't got a king title. If you had cherry-picked the richest cities for your demesne, there's a good chance you lost quite a few EU provinces to some upstart Count with a single province, or two. You would get a wealthy city times three for being a duke, and he'd get two not-so-good ones times five for being small. But even if you won, your lands would be quite scattered. I do intend to softcode this modifier at some point, in fact I'll do it for version 0.7, and you can play around with it.

Now, some of this is intentional, but I have to say, you're straining my mental model of the game a bit by owning 200 duchies and no kingdoms! So I'm not entirely surprised you're getting weird effects : It's a situation I wasn't really thinking of while coding.

Ack! I just realised what you were saying : You didn't become the duchy of Saxony, you got saxon culture! Well, disregard what I said about the primary title, then - you did in fact get the EU tag APU, right? That explains, then, why your capital ended up in Essex : It's the richest province of your national culture that you own. As for how you got saxon culture, well, see my reply to Sterk, above. Did you by any chance own a lot of England in your demesne? And come to think of it, perhaps your dynasty was Norman, which translates to anglosaxon in EU2.

Actually, this last is a bit of a buggerment. Norman in CK could reasonably translate to french, anglosaxon, or scandinavian; I've chosen anglosaxon to give historical results for England. But of course, that does tend to screw up those Italian places where the dynasty is Norman and the peasants are Italian - as you just discovered. I'm going to have to think about how to deal with this; I may have to bite the bullet and code some special cases for the Normans. Which is going to give weird results somewhere else, I just know it.

EDIT : Oh yes, cores. I've been meaning for some time to get something better than the temporary system in place now, which gives you what you own at EU2 start, plus a core on any province where you owned a city in CK. Suggestions are welcome.

EDIT 2 : Oops, you only get the king and duchy modifiers if you are a small nation. So kingdoms with one-province demesnes are extremely likely to win the contest for their EU province. Also, I'm softcodifying this now. :)
 
Last edited:

ulmont

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King of Men said:
The upshot of all this is, as you no doubt noticed, a bunch of minor nations all over the place. Some of these, of course, become your vassals.
Well, what I saw was more like a Castile owning all of the Iberian peninsula, a France holding all their 1492 provinces, and other things like that. Not so minors.

King of Men said:
First, as the Duke of Apulia, you should have become the EU tag APU.
I did. You were right, saxon was the CK culture this ruler had (with so many provinces, there's no way to get a 30% culture for your state - I'm destined to get whatever the current ruler is, which is somewhat annoying but as good as anything else).

King of Men said:
Second, about the crown lands. You will observe that you basically get your demesne
I really didn't get a whole lot of desmense at all. My capital wasn't even in my old desmense.

King of Men said:
As for how you got saxon culture, well, see my reply to Sterk, above. Did you by any chance own a lot of England in your demesne? And come to think of it, perhaps your dynasty was Norman, which translates to anglosaxon in EU2.
Actually, my duke at the time was legitimately saxon. I'm pretty sure I married saxon in and got the 15% mother chance. The dynasty did start off as Norman, but has passed through a number of different cultures (arabic, greek, saxon) and is now frankish.

King of Men said:
Actually, this last is a bit of a buggerment. Norman in CK could reasonably translate to french, anglosaxon, or scandinavian; I've chosen anglosaxon to give historical results for England. But of course, that does tend to screw up those Italian places where the dynasty is Norman and the peasants are Italian - as you just discovered.
Yeah, that does look annoying.

King of Men said:
EDIT : Oh yes, cores. I've been meaning for some time to get something better than the temporary system in place now, which gives you what you own at EU2 start, plus a core on any province where you owned a city in CK. Suggestions are welcome.
I suggest a modification of the current converter model, that uses 3 different levels of potential claims: core, "temporary permanent" CB (England <--> Scotland in the GC), and nothing.

[For Kings] Cores on your currently held kingdom titles' area, plus any adjacent ducal titles' area and any adjacent counties (and adjacent to adjacent, and so on). "Temporary Permanent" CB on any claimed kingdom titles.

[For Dukes] Cores on your currently held ducal titles' area, plus any adjacent counties. Cores on the natural kingdom title's area if that title is claimed. "Temporary Permanent" CB on any claimed kingdom titles.

[For Counts]Cores on your currently held counties, plus any *adjacent* claimed counties.

This would produce mildly ahistorical results in the best case for the England setup in EU2 (permanent CB on Ireland if King of Ireland claimed, permanent CB on Scotland if King of Scotland claimed, extra permanent CB on France if King of France claimed).

-Richard Campbell.
 
Last edited:

gigau

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Sorry to ask this, but, step by step, what exactely should i do once i have downloaded the three files ?

Because i have unzipped all three files in a folder, copied there my CK save file and run the converter through command prompt. But command prompt told me something about Jet Runtime... although i have downloaded O.6 version and that it was said this problem should be solved.
So what did i miss ?
 

ulmont

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gigau said:
i have unzipped all three files in a folder, copied there my CK save file and run the converter through command prompt. But command prompt told me something about Jet Runtime... although i have downloaded O.6 version and that it was said this problem should be solved.
So what did i miss ?
I don't know that you missed anything. I had the same problem with the 0.6 converter. I ended up downloading the java source and compiling / running that in a standard java interpreted way, but java programming is my day job.

-Richard Campbell.
 

ulmont

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Here's a link to my save data (not from the one I was talking about, slightly later).

The files are:

  • Duchy of Apulia_1292_June_8.eug. This is the CK file used for the EU2 scenarios.
  • Apulia-1292.eug. This is the stock beta (November) converter result.
  • Apulia-1292-KoM-1-1.eug. This is your converter with the misc settings all defaulted (so 1;1 in the 3rd line).
  • Apulia-1292-KoM-0-0.eug. This is your converter with the vassal chunking turned off (0;0 in 3rd line of misc.txt).

In both of your converter results, Apulia ends up with a culture of "none" in EU2. This is pretty weird, because I see that frankish is supposed to go to french, and the Duke is frankish (and may even have a frankish desmense province or two).

In the 1-1 result, you can see that vassals have been collected so much that Apulia has little area left in the Western Europe region. Basically keeps Finland together and some of the Middle East.

The 0-0 result looks significantly more sane.

The weirdness is that the area conquered seems to have massive impact on how much will be placed under a vassal and how much will be left desmense.

France and Germany, with all their minors, will end up pretty fragmented no matter what, but Finland I don't think can fragment, nor can parts of North Africa and the Middle East.

Anyway, it's there if you want to look at the results. If I find myself with time I will investigate my core / cb theories and see if they are too unwieldy or not.

-Richard Campbell.
 

gigau

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ulmont said:
I don't know that you missed anything. I had the same problem with the 0.6 converter. I ended up downloading the java source and compiling / running that in a standard java interpreted way, but java programming is my day job.

-Richard Campbell.


And how do i do that (once again, step by step) as i am a n00b in computer ?
 

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gigau said:
And how do i do that (once again, step by step) as i am a n00b in computer ?
The reason I didn't include step by step instructions is that I don't think there's much chance of getting this process working if you don't already program java.

I will go ahead and give a list of steps now, though. These were done on XP, but should be the same for 2000.

  1. Install the Java JDK. Go to http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/download.jsp, click the "Download JDK 5.0 Update 6" link, accept the license agreement and click the windows offline install. Wait for all 60MB to download, then install it.
  2. Install the Java 3D API (only used for matrix math, I believe). Go to http://java.sun.com/products/java-media/3D/download.html, click download, click download again, accept the license agreement and pick the directx sdk for windows install. Wait for it to download, then install it.
  3. Download the converter_src zip (either from KoM's sig file link thread, or directly here. Unzip that, let's say to c:\converter_src.
  4. Make sure javac and java are in your path. Start a dos prompt (start -> run -> cmd [enter]), type "echo %PATH% [enter]", and look for something like "C:\Program Files\Java\jdk1.5.0_06\bin" to be a piece of the output. If it's not there, go to control panel, system, environment variables, look for path, hit edit, add ";C:\Program Files\Java\jdk1.5.0_06\bin" at the end (change that jdk1.5.0_06 as appropriate for your install), "ok" your way back out, restart the dos prompt, and reverify.
  5. Compile the source. Start a dos prompt (or use one already set up), cd to c:\converter_src, and run "javac -cp . *.java". If all goes well, there will be no output, just a new command line.
  6. Run the converter. Start a dos prompt (or use one already set up), cd to c:\converter_src, and run "java -cp . Converter [ck save filename] [eu2 scenario filename]." If this goes well, the output will end in something like: "Done, made EU file [eu2 scenario filename]".
    So, to give a concrete example:
  7. Example command line: C:\converter_src>java -cp . Converter "c:\Crusader_Kings\scenarios\save games\Duchy of Apulia_1292_June_8.eug" "c:\Europa_Universalis_2\Scenarios\Apulia-1292-test.eug".
  8. Example final output line: "Done, made EU file c:\Europa_Universalis_2\Scenarios\Apulia-1292-test.eug".
  9. Make sure the EU file is in the [EU2 base directory]\Scenarios directory.
  10. Start EU2, and pick your new scenario from the list, and your new country.

-Richard Campbell.
 

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Ack, I thought that was fixed! Have to go to work now, but I'll take a good look at your save tonight, ulmont. Is anyone else having problems with the Jet runtime stuff? And what was the exact error message? I think I'll have to test this stuff on a machine where I haven't got Jet installed.
 

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King of Men said:
what was the exact error message?
Code:
C:\Converter_distrib>Converter.exe
***********
This application had been compiled with an evaluation version of Excelsior JET
and has now expired.
The restriction-free version of JET may be purchased online at the Excelsior's
Web site (http://www.excelsior-usa.com).
**********
And this is the file size and date of the files from that directory:
Code:
C:\Converter_distrib>dir
 Volume in drive C has no label.
 Volume Serial Number is 3548-8B4E

 Directory of C:\Converter_distrib

11/29/2005  08:30 AM    <DIR>          .
11/29/2005  08:30 AM    <DIR>          ..
10/22/2005  11:14 AM               161 aiList.txt
10/08/2005  12:47 PM             7,357 basepops.txt
11/08/2005  09:37 PM           572,928 Converter.exe
10/21/2005  06:43 PM             1,134 cots.txt
10/06/2005  08:00 PM               966 culture.csv
10/22/2005  10:33 AM               862 cultureconversion.txt
10/01/2005  10:45 AM                40 emperorlist
03/08/2004  09:22 AM               752 eu2_rotw_cot.txt
02/25/2004  03:01 PM           108,068 eu2_rotw_misc.txt
10/27/2005  08:36 PM                59 extraProvinces.txt
11/08/2005  08:36 PM             1,212 infraLevels.txt
10/27/2005  09:05 PM             1,503 knownProvinces.txt
11/08/2005  08:58 PM                83 misc.txt
10/15/2005  09:15 PM            85,722 names.txt
10/07/2005  09:56 PM            16,266 province.txt
11/08/2005  09:30 PM             6,543 README
10/08/2005  12:47 PM               528 regiondefs.txt
10/07/2005  04:30 PM                82 religionconversion.txt
10/07/2005  04:07 PM                96 shiitelist.txt
10/22/2005  06:44 PM            47,552 tagInfo.txt
09/24/2005  10:15 PM             1,400 tags.txt
11/08/2005  07:56 PM             3,775 techLevels.txt
11/29/2005  08:30 AM    <DIR>          xjre
              22 File(s)        857,089 bytes
And of the distribution.zip:
Code:
C:\Converter_distrib>dir \dl\distribution.zip
 Volume in drive C has no label.
 Volume Serial Number is 3548-8B4E

 Directory of C:\dl

11/29/2005  08:20 AM        22,708,298 distribution.zip
               1 File(s)     22,708,298 bytes

-Richard Campbell.
 

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ulmont said:
The reason I didn't include step by step instructions is that I don't think there's much chance of getting this process working if you don't already program java.

I will go ahead and give a list of steps now, though. These were done on XP, but should be the same for 2000.

-Richard Campbell.


Great many thanks... The steps are quite clear, but..... command prompt won't recognise javac or java as internal or external commands

Code:
Microsoft Windows XP [version 5.1.2600]
(C) Copyright 1985-2001 Microsoft Corp.

C:\Documents and Settings\Gillou>echo %path%
C:\Program Files\Java\jdk1.5.0_.6\bin

C:\Documents and Settings\Gillou>e:

E:\>cd ck-eu2 converter

E:\CK-EU2 Converter>javac -cp converter.java
'javac' n'est pas reconnu en tant que commande interne
ou externe, un programme exécutable ou un fichier de commandes.


I have installed both java jdf and java 3d api, in the default folders.
And i unzipped converter-src in a folder called "CK-EU2 Converter
 

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gigau said:
command prompt won't recognise javac or java as internal or external commands
Definitely a path issue.

gigau said:
Code:
C:\Documents and Settings\Gillou>echo %path%
C:\Program Files\Java\jdk1.5.0_.6\bin
I don't think that last '.' should be in there. Can you get to the dos prompt, cd to "c:\program files\java", run "dir," and make sure the "jdk1.5.0_.6" piece matches a directory inside "c:\program files\java"?

gigau said:
Code:
E:\CK-EU2 Converter>javac -cp converter.java
This should be "javac -cp . *.java", FYI, as per my step 5.

-Richard Campbell.
 
Last edited:

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Oh, ouch. Seems that evaluation version was a bit more restricted than I had thought. Damnation. Very sorry about that, peoples. I shall see what I can do about this. Damn the virtual machine, anyway. I would do this in C++, only I loathe and despise the std::string class, and savegame conversion is all about strings.

ulmont, thanks for the admirably clear instructions on how to download the JDK; I hope it'll be helpful. I think for my next version, I'll remove the vector math from my Utilities class, it's a leftover from another project; then you won't need the 3D API.

gigau, could you list for us the contents of your directory C:\Program Files\Java\jdk1.5.0_.6\bin? And also, perhaps you could try running the compiler as C:\Program Files\Java\jdk1.5.0_.6\bin\javac -cp *.java ? I'm not sure whether that would help, it's just a step to try.

One thing ulmont apparently left out, though : If you downloaded the class files (the second link, which unpacks to a bunch of files ending in .class) then you do not need to get the compiler to work, just the java command. So if you get to a point where it recognises java but not javac, you don't need to struggle further.
 

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ulmont said:
Definitely a path issue.

I don't think that last '.' should be in there. Can you get to the dos prompt, cd to "c:\program files\java", run "dir," and make sure the "jdk1.5.0_.6" piece matches a directory inside "c:\program files\java"?

This should be "javac -cp . *.java", FYI, as per my step 5.

-Richard Campbell.


My bad, don't know why i typed .6 instead of 06.... All my apologizes, Ulmont. If your instructions are followed to the letter, it is very simple. Great many thanks.
 

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  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
King of Men said:
One thing ulmont apparently left out, though : If you downloaded the class files (the second link, which unpacks to a bunch of files ending in .class) then you do not need to get the compiler to work, just the java command. So if you get to a point where it recognises java but not javac, you don't need to struggle further.
True. I left it out because my cycle went like this:

  1. Install converter distribution. Get VM expiration notice. Think "well, I can run this as a java program."
  2. Install converter classes. Get runtime error complaining about not being able to load AIHandler class (or similar). Think "oh, a class may have been left out."
  3. Install source. Get compile time errors for javax.vector. Install java3d package.
  4. Finally get things working.

So the only thing I could say for sure was that the source path worked. Also, if you get the source path working, you are perfectly positioned to begin your own development. :p

-Richard Campbell.
 
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