A Suggestion for Improving Japan (Now for 1.24!)

A Suggestion for Improving Japan (Now for 1.24!)

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    Real Strategy Requires Cunning

Grand Historian

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May 13, 2014
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As a disclaimer, I would just like to say that this is very well the longest single object I have yet written: Word counts it as being 35 pages without pics and nearly 17,000 words. It’s taken me a week full of bronchitis and nonstop work to get it done – the one saving grace of the length is that 4/5s of it is in the NIs, which I’ve naturally put in spoilers.

I’m very glad to see that Paradox is updating Japan again, and hopefully will be resolving a number of issues left over from MoH in 1.24. As I spent the better part of a year and a half being the largest voice on the forum for a Japan rework, I think it would be rather undue of me to voice my thoughts on the details of the rework-update that have been released so far, and offer my own ideas for them. As Paradox has decided to take the path of including the (overactive) Ashikaga – and as this will be a free update – I will refrain from making any mechanical references in regards to the Shogunate as a separate mechanic, and will take this opportunity to fix what I perceive as multiple flaws in my original and heavily revised post.

(And oh how they make me shudder.)


Map Changes (Culture/Trade Nodes):

It’s nice to see that Paradox has continued to expand the map of Japan, with Mikawa and Ise – I would like to make two more suggestions for provinces, being Omi and Iwashiro. I will present the why on both before going into culture and tradenodes:

The Date’s current situation in 1444 is not too accurately represented, but that’s admittedly to be expected: most of their direct lands were in the Okitama basin (the area around Yonezawa, which is currently part of Uzen) and in the districts in the northern parts of Iwashiro and Iwaki. Otherwise all the surrounding clans were their nominal vassals, and they exercised better control over the Rikuzen clans than they did the Iwashiro clans: hence why the Date should be reduced to the Rikuzen part of Rikuzen. The strongest of the Iwashiro kokujin, even by 1444, was the Ashina: they controlled the entirety of the Aizu basin, which put them in a stronger position than the many clans in the Fukushima valley or the Soma and Iwaki in Iwaki, and a position of power comparable to the demesne of their nominal overlords. Iwashiro will allow for a more accurate setup and a deeper Tohoku – additionally, it will make Uesugi domination of eastern Japan slightly more difficult.

Omi, on the other hand, is one of the most important provinces in Japanese history: the main objection I often see lodged against is clickability in regards to Yamashiro, but frankly I don’t think that’s an issue, especially if Lake Biwa is left out: Yamashiro would be the size of Lucca or Frankfurt, but how many Luccas and Frankfurts are there in Europe (and, for that matter, were added to it)? I believe Japan can afford to have one. Yamashiro’s importance speaks for itself, so I will go into depth for Omi: economically, Omi was the gateway into the capital. It was the terminus of traffic coming from the Hokurikudo, Tosando and Tokaido, with anyone wanting to go into or come from Echizen, Mino or Ise (and beyond) having to go through a part of Omi. As Lake Biwa is also the source of the Yodo river, it further served as an important point of navigation for any water traffic in Kansai. Culturally, Mt. Hiei and the Enryakuji – the cradle of most Japanese Buddhism – is located there, as is Lake Biwa. Militarily, in addition to occupying the end of the Tosando, Tokaido and Hokurikudo, Omi was also home to the Rokkaku (and their northern cousins the Kyogoku) – one of the most active participants in the Kinai, the staunchest supporters of the Ashikaga against the Hosokawa and Miyoshi, and a notable power in their own right.

With that out of the way, allow me to get to the first of screenshots that account for both these new provinces, and the ones revealed in the DDs:

20171204234106_1.jpg


Owing to the increase in provinces – both from 1.20 and 1.24 – I believe it was time that the Japanese cultural setup was further refined. In this I have added an additional two cultures to the group: Tohoku and Ryukyuan. Ryukyuan is self-explanatory and, frankly, overdue, while Tohoku (tag is Date) was to break off a region similar to Kyushu in terms of its own isolation from the overall group – coincidentally, both the new Tohoku group and the Kyushu group have six provinces in this setup.

Saigoku gained most of the border provinces that belonged previously to Togoku: Etchu, Mino, Owari (and sub sequentially Ise), while Mikawa fell into the Togoku group. As Etchu constitutes Kaga, Noto and Etchu provinces, and Kaga looked to Kinai for its religious and political leadership owing to the Ikko, while Noto imported a number of families from Kyoto after the Onin War, I felt it constituted sufficient reason to shift the province to Saigoku. Mino is only two provinces away from Kyoto, and Ise held large cultural ties to the Capital, most prominently in the Grand Shrine. Neither are really justifiably Togoku. As Owari was the origin of the Oda, and the Saigoku group constitutes much of the Oda-Toyotomi core realm, it followed suit (additionally, the Gifu-Nagoya dialect is often classified as being linguistically western).

As for Tradenodes:

20171204234010_1.jpg
20171204234031_1.jpg


I divided the Nippon node in half: Saigoku and Togoku. The new Togoku node constitutes the entirety of the Tosando, Tokaido and Hokurikudo, as well as Ezo. Mexico and California feed into it (California was rerouted from Girin), and it feeds into Saigoku. Musashi remains a CoT, while Omi is added as the node’s second CoT owing to place at the end of the three routes. Additionally, the Kiso and Shinano rivers were added as estuaries in Owari and Echigo respectively: both were major rivers in Japan (the Kiso is important enough to be called the Rhine of Japan) and their lack of representation is somewhat grating – they also allow for the traditionally poorer half of Japan to have important more trade provinces without more CoT. Finally, Kai’s tradegood was changed back to Gold: as the Kurokawa gold mine was a vital source of income for the Takeda and it would be discovered within a few decades of gamestart, gold sands were already being mined there, it would liven up eastern Japan’s tradegood variety (of which it has a disproportionately large number of Livestock provinces), and (I believe) there’s no event to turn the province into a gold mine, this would be a reversion for the better methinks.

Saigoku constitutes the remaining half of Japan: Kyushu, Shikoku, Chugoku, the western half of the Kinai, and the better part of Korea – to address the last item, as the renamed Nippon node lost half its provinces, the Pyongan and Hamgyeong areas were folded into the Beijing and Girin nodes respectively. This combined with the addition of Bungo and Settsu as CoT (Bungo as the Otomo were active in foreign trade well by gamestart, and Funai and Saganoseki were already ports of call for numerous foreign ships before the Portuguese arrived. Admittedly Hizen can work just as well under the same logic due to Hirado and Tsushima – regardless, I’m a staunch believer that Kyushu should have two CoT owing to the overwhelming majority of Japan’s international trade it handled). Between Sakai and Osaka, Settsu should speak for itself), it prevented Korea from having more than a 30% share in the node.


Map Changes (Political):

Before I address the other map changes, I would like to take some time to address the recent reveal that I’ve dubbed ‘The Shiba issue’.

The recent reveal of the Oda and Tokugawa as starting clans has, put bluntly, caused a bit of confusion. Neither were independent clans in 1444, though both were the de facto powers in their provinces – the issue is, however, so were a number of other clans that are not independent in 1444. I’ve heard some people say this situation is somewhat similar to S2’s Hattori in terms of the name drop; there’s some credence to this, but I believe there’s also a solution here that would allow the continued presence of the Oda and Tokugawa as starting clans while being historically consistent.

First, I should begin by saying that the Shiba’s current setup is ahistorical as is; I am, of course, referring to their control of Uzen. Now, it is true that the Shiba had a number of powrful branch clans in northern Japan: the Osaki, the more famous Mogami, and the Oshu/Kosuiji-Shiba (who were Osaki members that split off from the clan and reclaimed the Shiba name to signal their break with the Osaki). However, all of these clans were entirely independent of the goings-on of the Shiba in Kansai and operated as separate political entities. However, as I’m certain that no one wants to add even more provinces than would be necessary to Japan – nor that anyone wants to remove the Date or Nanbu in favor of either clan – I will simply stick to talking about the Mogami for this part, as the Shiba currently control Uzen.

The Mogami formed when Kaneyori Shiba took the name Mogami in 1367 after besting the local southern court supporters in Dewa and securing the Yamagata basin for himself: he was the son of Iekane Shiba, who was also the founder of the Osaki clan, so this was in fact not a Shiba from Kansai marching all the way up to Tohoku to subdue dissidents there, but just the branching out of an independent, local clan. Kaneyori was appointed Ushu Tandai, which not only legitimized his rule of the region, but cemented the Mogami’s break with the Osaki as a separate and equal political entity (as the Osaki had been appointed Oshu Tandai). Afterwards the Mogami would remain the largest power in Uzen despite ups and downs in their fortunes, and would go on to become one of the more important clans in the Sengoku period under the auspices of Yoshiaki Mogami, who largely unified the area under his rule. Either way; they deserve to be their own clan and in control of Uzen, as opposed to the Shiba. This would also have the added benefit of additional realism in addition to historicity; a localized conflict in Tohoku would not draw in thousands of troops from a decentralized Kansai (at least, as the immediate goal).

Now, with the Mogami out of the way, allow me to present the two different setups that I have considered; the first would be the historically accurate one:

20171204234333_1.jpg


Here the Shiba are in control of both Echizen and Owari, while the Hosokawa control Mikawa. This is the most accurate setup – while the Shiba’s control over both Owari and Echizen was weak owing to the fact that the Oda branches (one in Nagoya and one in Iwakura), the Asakura and the Kai all had significantly larger demesnes than the Shiba proper, it would not be until the Onin War that they lost their grip on Echizen, and until Nobunaga that all pretenses of Shiba rule over Owari were swept away. One would not be remiss in comparing their situation to the Ashikaga, in fact; their power was largely waning, but they still demanded acknowledgement from their erstwhile vassals and were not doomed to fail from the start.

As for Mikawa, the Awa-Hosokawa were granted governorship of the province in 1440 – the previous Shugo had been the Isshiki, and they would regain nominal ownership of the province shortly before the Onin War, though the Kokujin of the province (of who the Matsudaira were the most powerful) remained virtually independent.

This would be the strictly historical setup: the Mogami are an independent clan in Uzen, the Shiba remain in control of Owari, and the Hosokawa have control of Mikawa. The Oda and Tokugawa both have their cores on the provinces affirmed to ensure that people can play as them, and to represent the actual power they held. Additionally, another point was brought up to me during a discussion in the DD: that the Shiba’s power should be equal to the Hatakeyama as an argument against the Asakura’s inclusion. Here they both retain two provinces, both of which are within the confines of the actual spread of the Onin War.

Next would be the ‘No Shiba’ setup. As you can probably tell from the name alone, this will be even more radical than the Japanese setup revealed in the DD – it would also be a more internally consistent (and by proxy historical) one. This would see both the Oda and Tokugawa as being independent Daimyo – the Oda because they controlled the overwhelming majority of the land in Owari, and the Tokugawa because they already exist as a tag and the Matsudaira were the most powerful of the Mikawa kokujin – it would also see the Asakura in control of Echizen, and the Shiba tag recycled as the basis for a new Mogami clan (rather than wasting a new tag on them). As the Oda and Tokugawa have doubtlessly been covered at length, and I have already gone on about the Mogami, I will shift focus to the Asakura for this.

Now, as one of the reasons for the inclusion of the Oda and Matsudaira is that they were the de facto powers in their provinces; this is true for both, though the Matsudaira cannot claim to have had control of even the majority of the province in 1444. The same is true for the Asakura: the Shiba had very little power in Echizen personally, between the Asakura and Kai. I have been told by a credible authority that the Kai were actually stronger than the Asakura in 1444, but I believe this is a nonfactor: there’s no reason to have two OPM tags for a single province, the Asakura already had built up a substantial fiefdom and would emerge as the true authority in Echizen only twenty-seven years away from gamestart, and the uncontested ruler of the province in thirty-five. Additionally, a number of clans ingame did not actually have uncontested or even majority control of their respective provinces: despite defeating the Ochi decades earlier, the Tsutsui’s authority was only in the breadbasket of Yamato: almost all of central and southern Yamato acted virtually independent of them. The Shoni and Ito were in similar situations: the Shoni only had authority over an area around the Saga plain while the rest of Hizen was controlled by a number of Kokujin. Similarly, the Ito only could claim an area in the center of Hyuga – they weren’t even the dominant power in Hyuga until the 1500s. The Ogasawara and Date faced similar circumstances.

This brings me to the next point: Echizen was the first province the Shiba lost, not Owari. The Asakura revolted during the Shiba Civil War in 1469 – one of the many sub-conflicts of the Onin War – using their significant power base in Echizen to defeat the Kai and seize de-facto control of the province by 1471. The Oda, on the other hand, remained ostensibly loyal to the Shiba throughout the Shiba Civil War, and even Nobuhide Oda – Nobunaga’s father who is regarded as building the base of an active and independent Oda clan – was not able to expel them from the province. It would take Nobunaga nearly eighty years after the Asakura to fully throw off the Shiba. If Owari is independent, then Echizen also must be in order to be consistent. That Toshikage Asakura, the Asakura lord who would throw off the Shiba and preempt Soun Hojo as being the first Sengoku Daimyo, would be alive and playable in 1444 is another plus for the justification of ‘they were the real power in this province’.

Finally, it is likely worth noting that the Oda and Tokugawa were added as much for being the real power in their provinces as they were owing to their popularity and impact on Japanese history. While the Asakura are nowhere near as popular as either, they are one of the better known Japanese clans – if only owing largely to their role in Nobunaga’s rise to power – and had a very important impact in terms of both being either the first or one of the first Sengoku Daimyo (establishing their main base as an economically-thriving castle town, exercising direct control over retainers, laying down an effective house code, reliance on ashigaru, etc.) and being one of the major power players around the capital for roughly a century.

As the Shiba would lose both Owari and Echizen in this setup, Uzen would be only left to them, and so it would make sense to have them be rebranded as the Mogami.

To touch off on the political situation, I would like to draw attention westward to Aki: it’s currently in a thorny situation. Hosokawa control of Aki is, well, a point of contention for me. While the Hosokawa did have a branch in Bitchu, the issue is that Bitchu is only the smallest third of the pixels that constitute Aki province ingame: the Yamana controlled Bingo and the Aki-Takeda controlled, well, Aki (at least the better part of it – the allegiance of the Aki Kokujin is somewhat hard to pin down). As Bitchu is probably the most negligible part of Aki, and it does give the Hosokawa even more development, I would like to propose four possible solutions:

The first would be to give the province to the Takeda. This is the solution I am the most leery of; part of the point of the Mogami was to reduce the number of clans with territories halfway across Japan to zero, and the Takeda would have no way to get from Kai to Aki as the former is landlocked. Additionally, the four Takeda branches that were daimyo – the Aki-Takeda, Wakasa-Takeda, Kai-Takeda and Kazusa-Takeda – all acted completely independently of one another. The only benefits would be a stronger Takeda and that it would technically be historical.

The second would be to give the province to the Yamana. This would be especially useful should the Hosokawa get Mikawa: as I heard one of the arguments for the inclusion of the Tokugawa being ‘plus I don’t think the Hosokawa need another province’ (or something to the effect thereof), and Aki has the highest development in Chugoku, this would be an effective way to balance out the Hosokawa and Yamana once more. As the Yamana controlled Bingo, this would be perfectly historical.

The third would be to give the province to the Ouchi. It is not well known, but the Ouchi were already in control of a few districts in Aki by 1444 – hence the core they have on the province. Only three years after gamestart they would launch an invasion of the province owing to disputes with the Aki-Takeda over ownership of these districts which, depending on your interpretation, largely exerted their authority over it or just broke the Aki-Takeda’s ability to effectively rule over the province. Regardless, Aki would be solidly in their political sphere by the time of the Onin War – all accomplished by Norihiro Ouchi, the starting ruler of the Ouchi – and having them as owners of the province would be historically justifiable. Additionally, should the Hosokawa get Mikawa, it would allow for the Yamana and Hosokawa to be equal territorially with a stronger Ouchi to boot.

The four would be to give the province to the Mori. This is the solution I am most hesitant of, but thought it interesting enough to warrant some time to explain it. As mentioned with the Kai and Asakura, I do not feel there is a need for any one province to have more than one OPM tag in it: and Aki already has its own tag in the form of the Mori. Additionally, Aki as a province was already independent in 1444 with the Aki-Takeda. Finally, there is a case to be made that the Mori have had an impact on Japanese history comparable to that of the Oda and Tokugawa: it was, after all, Mori resistance that kept the Oda from conquering Japan, Mori backing that enabled the Toyotomi in their conquests of western Japan, Mori inaction that allowed the Tokugawa to usurp them, Mori revanchism that created the first modernized army in Japan, bested the Tokugawa, and ultimately enabled and drove the Meiji Restoration, and finally Mori vassal families that held prominence in the government of Japan as a world power.

The way to settle the disconnect between the Mori and Aki-Takeda would be simple: have the ruler of the Mori in 1444 be Nobushige Takeda, the reigning Daimyo of the Aki-Takeda in 1444, and his heir be Toyomoto Mori: he had actually been born earlier that year, and he would serve with distinction in the Hatakeyama Civil War and later the Onin War (as well as maintaining independent correspondence with the Ashikaga Shogunate), and became active in Aki politics and expanding Mori influence across the eastern half of the province (enough that he laid the possibility for Motonari’s success), before kow-towing to Masahiro Ouchi. This way the Aki-Takeda’s suzerainty would be recognized, but the player would be able to have the Mori ruler the Mori later. I do feel the need to reiterate this would not be my first choice by any stretch (though by all means they should have a core on the province), but the issue of the Oda and Tokugawa have led me to reassess Aki and the Mori as well.

To finally address something that will require far less words on my part: terrain changes. I reshaped the Sanriku coast to extend to Hokkaido and cut out roughly two thirds of it, folding it and much of the Hokkaido Coast (which is now the northern sea zone of Ezo) into the Oyashio Current. This allows for all the sea tiles surrounding Honshu to be shallow water, and thus friendly to Galley warfare.

Additionally, I have created a wasteland province in Japan – Nippon Mountains – to force the historical usage of the road system: the entirety of Hida has been rendered wasteland as no army in Japanese history marched through Hida to get from Etchu to Mino, while the borders between Shinano-Suruga, Kai-Kozuke and Ise-Kii have all been sealed owing to the fact that the mountains where those provinces connect are simply too thick to march thousands of men over.


Shogunate:

The introduction of the Ashikaga was a mixed bag. On one hand, numerous Ashikaga Shoguns did attempt to restore their authority (usually achieved via calling upon a clan to expel the current occupant, who would then usually go on to just assume the role of the clan they pushed out), and it would be fun to have the option to restore their authority.

On the other, the Ashikaga are laughably overpowered – especially in light of the fact that the previous Shogun had been brazenly murdered merely 3 years prior to start-date, and the strength of the Shugo is at an all-time high – unify Japan more often than not, and overall have just replaced one problem with another. That there is no way to puppet the Shogun – but they can order Daimyo to commit suicide a day following the first DoW – is an even more egregious breach of history.

As removing the Ashikaga is now out of the question, I would like to propose a solution that I believe will resolve most of the woes surrounding the utter disconnect between the Shogun’s ability to interact with his vassals and his de facto and historical political power: breaking the Shogunal Interactions into tiers based on the number of controlled provinces.

The Shogun would have to have ownership of three provinces in order to unlock the first tier of Shogunate Interactions: Contribute to Capital, Change Isolationism and Sankin-Kotai. These were the interactions the Ashikaga were only really able to carry out historically; they had the authority to designate which clans would officially represent Japan in the Tally Trade (although they could do nothing about the number of clans that illegally got involved) or to manage the Ryukyus and Ezo, frequently got boons from a number of regional clans who either made pilgrimage to Kyoto or otherwise subsidized the court, and they were finally able to call a number of regional Daimyo to Kyoto (however, most of them were only in the vicinity of Kinai, and having them work out of Kyoto tended to be a double-edged sword).

The second would be indicative of the Oda-Toyotomi regimes: six provinces to unlock Conscript General and Sword Hunt. Hideyoshi’s sword hunt speaks for itself, and the Oda and Toyotomi were both able to effectively call upon their allies and loyal vassals in the provinces for regiments. The last would represent the absolute power the Tokugawa were able to exercise: nine provinces to unlock Force Seppuku and Forcibly Expel Ronin: as no serious regional powers remained to challenge the Edo Shogunate after Osaka, they had the necessary authority to order anyone they wanted to kill themselves or remove potential rebellious forces from their domain.

This is, admittedly, a simple change: I believe it will also be a very effective one. The Ashikaga wouldn’t be able to break their vassals from day one with interactions, but wouldn’t be far away from exercising actual control over them, either.


National Ideas:

To put it bluntly, I am unsatisfied with a number of national ideas – both in terms of my own suggestions (owing partly to the fact I was running on the assumption the Japanese NI set would not be changed so heavily and the even more foolish assumption that certain clans would be getting unique flavor events), and in a number of revisions made; I feel a decent amount of the sets come across as being too generic and skipping over a number of historical events that would make ideal material for an NI set, and/or are unfocused. Finally, much of the flavor text feels choppy, and I only have myself to blame for that.

I will revise the majority of the Japanese NI sets below, as well as include updated suggestions for NI sets for revolter clans that do not currently exist in 1444 as of 1.23 (I.E Mori and the like). Additionally, I will give historical background and reasoning on each idea – ideas and their effects will be bolded, the actual flavor text (should it be changed or required) will be italicized, while any extraneous information will be in parenthesis for the reader’s discretion (I’ll try to refrain from inserting text or commentary to ideas I have not changed). Additionally, I will include a section for Idea Sets contingent on my proposed map changes. True to form, I will start from Kyushu and work my way up to Tohoku:

Shimazu:

Traditions: -1% Yearly Army Tradition Decay, -10% Infantry Cost

(Southern Kyushu was generally considered to be poorer than northern Kyushu, and the Shimazu had yet to earn a reputation for ferocity yet as most of the major fighting in Kyushu had all been in the north [Mongols, Takauji Ashikaga, Sadayo Imagawa, etc.] – that largely arose as a result from their actions in 1570s and 80s, during Korea and Sekigahara, and was further compounded due to Satsuma being one of the most important domains in the Meiji Restoration. Put bluntly, Inf. Combat doesn’t make much sense as a tradition.)

Oni Shimazu: +15% Infantry Combat Ability

The Hayato were the inhabitants of Satsuma in ancient days: famed as warriors, their legacy falls to us. In keeping with that, we train ceaselessly so all will know us as Oni Shimazu.

(The Hayato were a pre-Yamato people in Satsuma. While they were one of the last to be conquered and the differences that Satsuma had to the rest of Japan can be partly attributed to their continued resistance, having the main point of it be about them comes off as being a bit off. Owing to their numerous exploits – from destroying all major opposition on Kyushu to being renowned as Oni in Korea for their ferocity, to charging straight through Ieyasu Tokugawa’s main unit at Sekigahara to escape the battle they played no active role in, I believe the Shimazu are deserving of having their Inf. Combat be equal to Japan’s.)

Satsunan School: +15% Manpower Recovery Cost

Forty-Seven Iroha Poems: -10% Idea Cost

Iroha is a classic form of poetry, and we have coined forty-seven poems around this model. Each emphasize Confucian values and unity, and the lessons in them can benefit much by becoming the bedrock of our education system.

(After retiring and becoming a monk, Tadayoshi Shimazu spent some time as a poet: the Iroha poems he wrote would become an instant hit in the Kyoto Poetry scene after he showed them to Kampaku Taneie Konoe, who was most famous for accepting numerous Shimazu bribes. The most famous one roughly translates into: “Even if you learn old ways, if you cannot use them as your own, it is meaningless.” and it would reinforce the emphasis the Shimazu put on Confucian learning.)

Tanegashima: +10% Fire Damage

Shimazu Brothers: +1 Leaders without Upkeep

To many clans, an excess of family members is an open invitation to civil war. To us, however, it is our strength: we are totally unified in purpose behind our lord, and each son of the Shimazu is valued for their own strengths.

(Obviously the four most famous members of the Shimazu would be Yoshihiro, Yoshihisa, Iehisa and Takahisa, who were all renowned for their respective abilities via their grandfather’s assessment. However, Takahisa was also supported by his brothers, and combining the resources of all three Shimazu branches into a consolidated and stable clan structure was Tadayoshi’s biggest accomplishment. Regardless the emphasis on clan unity needs to be represented in a Shimazu NI set.)

Tsurinobuse: +5% Discipline

(Part of the reason the Shimazu’s Lure and Ambush tactic was as effective as it was was due to the Shimazu’s heavy adoption of Firearms – as the tactic also only really appeared after they adopted them, it should come after it in the set.)

Ryukyuan Trade: +10% Trade Power Abroad

(Trade Steering was not my finest idea for this, uh, idea when I first made the NI set, as you can’t actually steer trade from the Philippines or China into Japan. Trade Power Abroad would be just as suitable for exerting influence in foreign markets via proxy while having more usability).

Ambition: -1 Global Unrest

(As the Shimazu suffered a complete collapse in their territorial authority early on, and subsequentially emphasized clan unity above all else during their golden age, the idea of maintaining better control of their vassals makes sense. Even in the aftermath of Hideyoshi’s Kyushu Campaign and concerted efforts from the Toyotomi to divide the Shimazu leadership, they remained unified largely unified. I would also like to take a moment to explain why ‘Early Westernization’ and tech cost is not on this list: it is entirely out of the period, and was spurred by the Tokugawa. The Shimazu were devout Buddhists who actively persecuted Christianity – normally one of the requirements in this period to be ‘westernized’ – and ardent Neo-Confucians who emphasized Chinese learning. Satsuma’s westernization in the 1850s can be attributed to being faced with a world that had so far jumped ahead technologically and a hated Shogunate that seemed to have become subservient to it within a few weeks; neither of those circumstances will exist in EU4, and the most ‘westernized’ the Shimazu got during it was adopting and reproducing firearms on an unprecedented scale.)


Ito:

Traditions: -25% Cost to Fabricate Claims, -10% Shock Damage Received

Gokenin Family: +1 Yearly Prestige

God’s Landing: -10% Aggressive Expansion Impact

(‘Land of God’s Landing’ is a little choppy, though I have no qualms with the idea or desc.)

Pilgrimages to the Capital: -10% Province Warscore Cost

We must keep active ties to Kyoto and the Courts there: currying favor with them will be useful in legitimizing our conquests, and knowing the latest trends so we can present ourselves as proper Daimyo never hurts either.

(Yoshisuke Ito, in addition to quelling the internal dissent within the Ito and conquering much of Hyuga, went at lengths to keep active ties to Kyoto – enough that he apparently slipped into a life of degeneracy befitting of an imperial courtier, and his absence in his initial battles against the Shimazu as result is often accredited as being the cause of the Ito’s decline. After losing Hyuga – while most of the Ito fled to the Otomo – he went straight to the Kinai and wandered around between Kyoto and Sakai.)

Network of Forty-Eight Fortifications: +1 Hostile Attrition

(The main advantage of having a network of four dozen castles and forts supporting your main base in Sadowara would not be that it actually improves the defenses of Sadowara proper, but that it makes actually getting there more of a drain on resources for an attacker – both in actually taking the forts and then in having to garrison the ones they decide to keep.)

Unification of the Ito Domain: -10% Core Creation Cost

While Hyuga as a whole is still broken up into a series of small fiefdoms ruled by local clans – Tsuchimochi, Mitai and Hongo, to name a few – even our domain proper is fractured with petty fiefdoms ruled by arrogant vassals and quarrelsome cousins. Increasing our demesne at the expense of these few will take us one step closer to truly uniting Hyuga as a province.

(Yoshisuke Ito had to contend with a number of dissidents upon his ascension, either from other Ito clan members who tried to take clan headship or vassals who felt they were better off on their own. Additionally, as the Ito were never had the Tsuchimochi as vassals nor were the Shugo of Hyuga in 1444, having an idea titled Unification of the Ito Domain deal primarily with the Tsuchimochi is a bit odd.)

Inexhaustible Vassals: -10% Land Maintenance Cost

No matter how much ground we may lose, and no matter what pains it may cause them, our vassals have demonstrated they will continue to remain loyal to us. Be it holing up in castles against all hope to buy time or lowering themselves as to sell sake to support us, there is little our vassals will not be willing to endure to see our clan victorious.

(While most of the Kimotsuki vassals folded upon the defeat of the clan, a startling large number of Ito retainers refused to bow the knee to the Shimazu, instead fleeing into the Otomo domain and then accompanying Suketaka Ito into exile after Mimigawa. One of the most famous amongst them was a vassal called Sukenaga Kawasaki who would sell sake during his travels with Suketaka to help make ends meet.)

Development of Forestry: - 10% Construction Cost

Ambition: +15% Land Forcelimit Modifier


Kikuchi:

Traditions: +10% Cavalry Combat Ability, -25% Unjustified Demands

(Back during the rise of the Ashikaga, the Kikuchi were the biggest threat to them as they posed the only real threat to them on Kyushu. The Taiheiki recorded that during the 1336 Battle of Tatarahama the Kikuchi had at least 40,000 horsemen – while this number is doubtlessly inflated, it is undeniable they had a significant numerical advantage. Additionally, the Kikuchi were one of the three most important clans in repelling the Mongol Invasions, along with the Shoni and Otomo – and despite not being Shugo, had worked their way into being one of the most powerful clans on Kyushu.)

Distinguished Family: +1 Yearly Legitimacy

Some believe we are descended from the Fujiwara. Others say Baekje. Regardless, one thing is evident: we well predate the Otomo, Shoni and Shimazu in Kyushu, and our lineage demands the respect due to such a claim.

(It would make sense that having such an ancient presence would demand a measure of legitimacy rather than outright appeasing people.)

Champions of the Southern Court: +10% Land Morale

We fought for Imperial Restoration in the Kenmu, and again during Nanboku-Cho, being the backbone of the Imperial forces in Kyushu. While we ultimately tasted defeat at the hands of the traitorous Otomo and Shoni, the legacy of such resistance and knowledge that were in the right continues to inspire us.

(The Kikuchi became lionized after the Meiji Restoration owing to their unflinching support of Go-Daigo and the Southern Court. However, the extent that they did it out of idealism has come into question recently, and scholarship has now largely shifted to the belief that they did it more for the fact that the Otomo and Shoni – clans who the Kikuchi hated owing to an assassination and continued political sideswipes – sided with the Ashikaga. However, that doesn’t mean such sentimentalism was a product of Meiji; Yoshihiro Shimazu equated Chikatsugu Shiga with Masashige Kusunoki, and Yukimori Yamanaka was widely held as being Kusunoki’s equal not long after his death.)

Land of Fire: +1 Yearly Prestige

Aso Shrine: +1 Tolerance of the True Faith

(As Legitimacy has been shifted to distinguished family, this was the next logical step – the current flavor text is even virtually interchangeable with the two values. Additionally, I wanted to give them something religious, but as the Kikuchi did not survive long enough to see Christianity gain traction in Higo, this seemed like a more historical option.)

Adopt into the District Clans: -10% Diplomatic Annexation Cost

The Aso, Sagara and Nawa clans – all located in the fringes districts of our domain – are virtually independent of our authority. To outright antagonize them would be to just push them into the hands of neighboring clans, and so we should try to integrate them better into our domain by inviting their heirs to assume our name.

(The Kikuchi weren’t Shugo – but between being one of the oldest clans in Kyushu, and having their seat of power in the breadbasket of Higo, they were able to command a level of authority early on that many non-Shugo clans would simply lack in the early and mid-1400s. However, this didn’t stop a number of clans in more isolated districts from acting independent of their authority. While historically the Kikuchi failed to stop the degeneration of their power, they still brought in one of the Aso chiefs as their clan head, which would integrate the two for short time before dynastic intrigue in the Aso saw it go up in flames.)

Rein in the Chief Retainers: -0.05 Monthly Autonomy

(Really the only problem I have with it is the name – Three Chief Retainers sounds more like you’d be relegating power to them.)

Central Stronghold: +15% Defensiveness

Ambition: +1 Diplomats


Shoni:

Traditions: +10% Trade Efficiency, +20% Land Forcelimit Modifier

Vice Minister of Dazaifu: +10% Domestic Trade Power

(The Shoni set is admittedly in a bit of a tight spot, as it’s more of a conglomeration of the Hizen clans than singularly about the Shoni. As such, I’ll shift the focus to be more on Hizen in general. Additionally, I believe this is the Japanese set that should focus more on Leader Pips, not the Oda – most of the military capabilities of the Hizen clans seemed to draw primarily from the reputation and capabilities of a small circle of generals, most of them from certain clans, rather any technological or organizational superiority over their neighbors. The complete collapse of the Ryuzoji as a power in Kyushu after Okitanawate demonstrates that point well enough. As for the idea proper, Domestic Trade Power can work well for this idea slot as well, as Dazaifu was also there to guard Hakata and it’s trade, and the Ryuzoji did not have a stellar reputation at all [while the Shoni’s political clout was nil compared to the Ouchi’s].)

Defenders of Japan: +1 Leader Land Fire

Undying Clan: +1 Leader Land Siege

Our clan has suffered many deprivations and setbacks, be it at the hands of our neighbors or even the kokujin who are supposed to be loyal to us. However, no matter how many times we are destroyed, no matter how many castles we lose, we have shown that time and time again we have the mettle to arise and reclaim lost land with ease.

(The Shoni fortunes – from fifty or so years before gamestart to their last attempt at return in 1570 – were constantly in flux. They would constantly clash over Dazaifu and Hakata – be it with Sadayo Imagawa, the Shibukawa Tandai, or later the Ouchi – take the city, and then lose it, often with their Daimyo getting killed in the resulting battle and the Shoni pretender fleeing to Tsushima or deeper into Hizen, only to return and retake it. This cycle went on thrice with the Ouchi – with the end result being Chikuzen in the hands of Yamaguchi and the Shoni seemingly destroyed again. Then Sukemoto Shoni, son of Masasuke Shoni, who had been hidden as a kid by retainers, popped up again and retook some of Hizen. The Ouchi didn’t like this, and after one failed attempt killed Sukemoto and destroyed the Shoni for the fifth time. Then his son, Fuyuhisa, revived the Shoni yet again with the help of the Ryuzoji, who he promptly betrayed to solidify his power. Takanobu Ryuzoji would later return to Hizen and destroy the Shoni for a sixth time. Then Fuyuhisa’s brother, Takaoki, would later go to the Otomo, who would fail to restore him in the Imayama debacle, destroying the Shoni once and for all after seven attempts at restoration.)

Harbors of Hizen: +15% Provincial Trade Power

Hizen is home to a number of major, if unrecognized, trade ports: Hirado, Yokoseura, Fukuda, Kuchinotsu, and the fast-growing village of Nagasaki. Rather than imposing ourselves, we should allow the local clans and merchants to largely manage them and compete to draw even more trade into Hizen.

(There are really two issues I take with the Nagasaki idea; Nagasaki was built largely by the Jesuits and further populated by those Christians fleeing the Ryuzoji’s persecution, and as a such without either it wouldn’t be nearly as large or important as it was despite its location. The second would stem from that: there were a large number of already pre-established ports in Hizen [and unlike the others, Hirado would remain relevant after Nagasaki’s establishment], and so rather than emphasizing one market above the others it should represent the growth of all in the face of foreign trade.)

Bears of Hizen: +1 Leader Land Shock

(The Nabeshima were also known for wearing bearskins – it was the Nabeshima unit under the command of Naoshige’s grandfather that actually were critical in repulsing the Ouchi’s 1530 invasion of Hizen – so I think plural would be more appropriate here.)

Hagakure: -1% Yearly Army Tradition Decay

Foreign Communities: -10% Development Cost

Foreigners of all tongues have established communities in our many trading ports – Portuguese, Dutch, Chinese and Korean all – and their skills combined with their mercantile and academic connections continue to help in ensuring our domain prospers.

(Hizen, by far, had the largest foreign communities in Japan across its history: from Nagasaki being a Jesuit Colony, to the Dutch factories at Dejima and Hirado, to the Chinese quarter of Nagasaki and the large number of woku groups [most of who were ethnically Chinese] that found patronage or shelter in Hizen, to the large number of Koreans resettled in Hizen after the Imjin War, it was the go-to place for most foreigners outside of Kansai or Edo.)

Ambition: - 10% Military Technology Cost


Otomo:

Traditions: +10% Goods Produced, +10% Trade Efficiency

(These traditions are to reflect the Otomo’s recent break into foreign trade and interaction: the clan head at the start of the game, Mochinao, was actually actively engaged in trade with Korea, and imported a large number of hemp cloth from Korea [he had actually asked for a bell so he could build a temple]. That Yoshimasa Ashikaga also sold a number of tally licenses to get himself out of a financial rut meant that the Otomo were able to easily worm their way into participating in the trade missions. He had also killed Mochimichi Kono in 1435 to have undisputed control of the Bungo Channel [and its shipping], in addition to suppressing a number of piratical groups.)

Loyal Retainers: +15% Land Morale

(If the Shimazu had an exceptional track record in battlefield bravery, the Otomo had one in resilience. I don’t particularly think Discipline fits the Otomo – the reason they lost a sure victory at Imayama was because the decided to start partying in the middle of a siege, and the pell-mell retreat the Otomo army undertook in the aftermath of Mimgawa shakes the idea of an orderly or discipline army. The Otomo clan structure itself suffered from deficiencies in authority. However, the Otomo had all the resilience of the Shoni with little of the losses: they repelled every Ouchi incursion into Bungo, and even after Mimigawa were able to effectively rally their army and launch a counteroffensive against the Ryuzoji and Shimazu. Even when that largely failed to bear fruit, the Otomo vassals did an excellent job in resisting the Shimazu invasion of Bungo and Chikuzen: while Funai was lost due to Hetsugigawa [again a demonstration of why Discipline wouldn’t work well to the Otomo] almost all the major castles in the Otomo domain held out: Oka, Usuki, Tachibana, Saiki, Togamure, and Tsurusaki all stood, with Tsuruga and Iwaya dealing disproportionately high casualties to the attacking Shimazu forces before falling. An additional note of worth is that Yoshimune Otomo was actually much better at rallying his forces than Katsuyori Takeda, who was a decidedly better warrior and frankly just a superior leader in general – even after Hetsugigawa, in which there were exponentially more Otomo loyalists than Takeda, Yoshimune Otomo was able to rally together a who’s who of Otomo vassals to help in his bid to reclaim Bungo during Sekigahara, winning the support of Muneshige Tachibana, Chikatsugu Shiga, Jonin Tawara and Masanobu Yoshihiro, amongst others. To top all of this off, the Otomo are the only clan that outright incentives you to go Christian: +15% Land Morale won’t hurt too much should you lose Shinto’s bonus.)

Seven Province Host: +20% Land Forcelimit Modifier

Our army can boast that it is drawn from all corners of Kyushu: lords all across the island answering our call and rallying underneath our banner when the need arises. We shall amass the mightiest army in Kyushu’s history!

(The Otomo army at its height was famed as the Seven Province Host: aptly named for the seven provinces of Kyushu the Otomo were able to draw troops from. Additionally, as the Otomo suffered from what ingame would be autonomy issues, this is a more historical bonus in addition to having more specific flavor text.)

Welcome Nanban Trade: +20% Provincial Trade Power

(The in game text has it as ‘Welcoming the Nanban Trade’ which just sounds awkward. As for the modifier: under Sorin the Otomo kept active trade relations with Korea, China, and Portuguese Goa, in addition to having their ports be the favorites of Portuguese and Spanish merchants visiting Japan. Domestic Trade power is entirely unsuitable for them.)

Monopoly on the Saltpeter Trade: +10% Fire Damage

While firearm production has spread rapidly across Japan, quality saltpeter is still a rarity. Through a combination of leveraging our religious ties to the Nanban and offering higher prices for it than other domains, we can effectively impose an embargo on our rivals and improve the performance of our weaponry at the same time.

(During his conflicts with the Mori, Sorin wrote to the Bishop of Goa, asking that he cease any shipments of saltpeter to Yamaguchi and the Mori as that would be aiding a state antagonistic to Christianity. Additionally, he offered breaks for sulfur merchants to increase their production and was able to afford to buy higher than his rivals – the consequence was that the Otomo had some of the most quality firearms on the island.)

Center of Japanese Christianity: +1 Missionary, +1 Yearly Papal Influence

Our encouragement of the Nanban’s presence has seen their religion flourish: originally negligible as the only converts were amongst the urban poor, it has since seen a surge in popularity amongst the nobility in recent years – many cities have taken on decidedly Christian tones, castles are adopting western architectural elements, and Nanban dress and cuisine is becoming increasingly common in higher circles. Regardless of our official stance, the fact that our heartlands have become Christian is something everyone – from our Daimyo to foreign merchants and scholars – is aware of.

(As the original language of the Christian Conversion idea was toned down upon release to be less deterministic, I thought it would be better to go one step further and rewrite the whole thing to be more neutral, while simultaneously reflecting some of the cultural changes Christianity brought with it.)

Kunikuzushi: +10% Artillery Combat Ability

(Two of the Otomo’s three biggest defeats – Imayama and Mimigawa – were during a siege they were invested in. Siege Ability would not be appropriate for them, especially as the Kunikuzshi were breech-loaded cannons best suited for anti-personnel roles due to their smaller barrels, ability to swivel, and high rate of fire – further aided by the Otomo’s abundance of quality gunpowder.)

Tensho Embassy: +1 Diplomatic Reputation

As we further strengthen our ties with the west, some of the resident missionaries have suggested we send a mission of Japanese Neophytes to Rome to raise awareness – not only of the mission and its converts, but our patronage of it as well.

(This would be a much more fitting bonus than for what I first had it pegged as: the idea of the Embassy was originally conceived by Alessandro Valignano to raise awareness and funding for the Japanese Mission [the income from Nagasaki was barely enough to keep the chronically understaffed mission solvent]. Sorin, who had previously exchanged letters of friendship with the king of Portugal, was all to eager to jump at the chance. Additionally, it fits the Otomo well, particularly under Sorin’s tenure: the Otomo had a noted reputation as mediators in Kyushu as well as being the most reliable ally of Dazaifu, and Sorin himself was a famed letter writer who actively instigated alliances with the Amago, Ito, Ichijo and Oda amongst others, in addition to managing to smooth over decades of bad blood and make a lasting (albeit short-lived) alliance with the Ouchi.)

Ambition: -5% Technology Cost

(As the Shimazu lost it, it seems only fitting to put it here – additionally, not having a faster institution spread can help represent the more conservative elements in the Otomo who balked at the spread of Christianity and westernization while maintaining the technological connotations of the Tensho Embassy.)


Ouchi:

Traditions: +15% Galley Combat Ability, +15% National Manpower Modifier

(The Ouchi were able to actively call upon the naval groups of Aki and the Seto Islands, in addition to having a supply of ready ships in the form of Hakata – altogether it gave them a formidable naval presence. They were also able to punch above their weight militarily owing to a combination of a long series of competent military commanders and some early administrative reforms that allowed them to field more troops.)

Descendant of Baekje: +1 Diplomatic Reputation

Statement of Holdings: +10% Trade Efficiency

Most Daimyo rely on the size of a land to judge its value: by switching our metric from the size of a particular piece of land to how much rice it produces, and then drawing up an inventory of our vassal’s estates to there are no unlawful seizures of land or discrepancies when we receive our due.

(The Ouchi were one of the first Daimyo to attempt to switch to the Kokudaka System and the cadastral survey they conducted was crucial in ensuring such a transition was possible – as well as in centralizing the clan structure, since land theft was a very real threat in Sengoku Japan.)

Tally Trade: +15% Global Trade Power

Due in part to our geographical location and in part due to the trust of the Shogunate, we are the premier force in representing Japanese mercantile interests in the Sinosphere. We have strong ties with Korea – we have a practical monopoly on ginseng, and our acquisition of imported sutras further speaks to our wealth – and are acknowledged by the Chinese court as being the official representatives of the Shogunate in the Tally Trade system.

(While the Ouchi were indeed the biggest clan in trade with Korea, they were also heavily involved with the tally trade as a whole; and as the Sinosphere is a large place, Global Trade power [which they surprisingly lack in a set geared towards a Venetian Japan] is more fitting here than domestic. If further proof is needed of the Ouchi’s domination of the Tally Trade, the Ming refused to accept any further trade missions from Japan after the Ouchi’s fall in 1557, though smuggling amongst clans like the Otomo and Sagara was able to flourish as a result.)

The Merchants of Hakata City: +1 Merchants

Kyoto of the West: -10% Development Cost

Kyoto has suffered deprivation after deprivation owing to the constant warfare around the capital: as it is also no longer a safe or practical place to manage a domain out of, we should instead aim to not only recreate Kyoto – from its layout, to its culture, to its wealth and prominence – in Yamaguchi, but surpass it enough it would one day be worthy for the Imperial Court to reside in.

(Under the Ouchi, Yamaguchi became the most important city in western Japan, arguably surpassing even Hakata in terms of affluence. It was remodeled by Masahiro Ouchi based on Kyoto’s layout – hence the Kyoto of the West moniker – and surpassed it by all other metrics owing to the ruin that Kyoto proper was in. The Ouchi even attempted to relocate the Imperial Court to Yamaguchi under Yoshitaka to top it all off, a move that would have been an unparalleled political coup for the Ouchi, but the costs and influx of courtiers merely caused a coup of an entirely different type.)

Welcome the Westerners: +1 Tolerance of Heretics, +1 Tolerance of Heathens

Retainer Factions: -10% Advisor Cost

Ambition: +10% Land Morale

(To reflect the ultimate victory of the militarists historically – additionally, the Ouchi would need one land quality idea.)


Amago:

Traditions: +10% Manpower Recovery Speed, -10% Land Maintenance Modifier

(Inflation reduction is a totally useless tradition for the Amago, especially as Japan doesn’t currently start off with any gold mines.)

Shingu Army: +5% Discipline

We are aided in our efforts by an elite cabal of warriors led by a cadet branch: named the Shingu Army for the valley where they have their residence in, these men will form the backbone of our army.

(As a whole, I’m not opposed to the ‘x-Genji’ ideas, but they come across as being somewhat filler-y and I think lineage only should be used when a more clan-specific idea is not available. As for his idea, the Shingu Corps were led by Kunihisa Amago, second son of Tsunehisa Amago, and his son Sanehisa: they were some of the best warriors in the Amago, and Haruhisa’s purge of them [as Kunihisa apparently got too big for his britches] severely weakened the Amago.)

Kizuki Grand Shrine: +1 Tolerance of the True Faith

(As the Amago had to deal with a lot of infighting and a generally unstable clan structure, I think +1 Tolerance of the True Faith is more suitable than +2.)

Ten Banners: +20% Defensiveness

Our lands are guarded by the Ten Banners: ten critical castles built across Izumo’s borders, each manned by a key vassal family. Not only do these castles ensure control of key routes, but they form a solid defensive line around Gassantoda: any attacker seeking to reach its walls would have to go through great pains just to get there.

(Part of the success of the Amago’s defense of Izumo against the Ouchi was this system of satellite forts they had: spread out across Izumo, and often located at key gateways into it, they were able to effectively protect the province and the Amago capital. However, when Yoshihisa Amago surrendered Izumo to the Mori without a fight, a couple of these banner castles defected to the Mori as well, which severely undermined the Amago’s provincial control and allowed the Mori unimpeded access into Izumo.)

Iwami Ginzan: +10% Goods Produced

Kokujin Connections: -10% Core Creation Cost

The Kokujin are the bedrock of any clan: and the success or failure of a clan can be entirely determined around whether or not a Daimyo can successful win and maintain the loyalties of local landholders. Being former Kokujin ourselves, we know better than most in how to manage them – and the Izumo Kokujin are a sentimental lot.

(One of the reasons the first Amago Restoration Army was so successful was that it was able to attract the support of a large number of Kokujin who, while formerly Amago, had served the Mori either after the Amago’s fall or fell in during their invasion. They were able to draw in the entirety of Oki Island (which would become their haven), most of the Izumo Kokujin, some in Hoki, and even a few in Iwami: within a few days of landing in Izumo, Yamanaka’s army had swelled to 3,000 men, and after winning the battle of Harate that number doubled to 6,000, with further cells in Mimasaka, Bitchu, Inaba and Bingo. Of course, this was nothing really new: while Yoshioki Ouchi was gone in Kyoto, Tsunehisa Amago’s correspondences with a number of Kokujin across Bingo, Aki, Iwami and so on saw the Amago explode across Chugoku, becoming the only power in western Japan really capable of challenging the Ouchi toe-to-toe within a few years.)

Ten Brave Warriors: +10% Land Morale

Seven Troubles and Eight Pains: +10% Land Morale Recovery

Our vassals have taken an oath: that they would endure Seven Troubles and Eight Pains to have the strength and resolve necessary to see our clan triumphant at the end. This loyalty is unparalleled in all Japan!

(Shikanosuke Yamanaka famously prayed to the moon for Seven Trouble and Eight Pains – in essence, asking for as many trials as possible to both strengthen and display his resolve to restore the Amago; this would become a famous feat of his and help enshrine him in Japanese folklore as a Sengoku Masashige Kusunoki.)

Ambition: +10% Siege Ability

(Yamanaka and the Amago Restoration Army were incredibly skilled at taking castles: after the battle of Harate, he seized sixteen castles in short order, placing almost all of Izumo back in the Amago’s hands. Another impressive feat [amongst many others] includes taking Tottori Castle with only 1,000 men against a garrison of 5,000.)



Hosokawa:

Traditions: +10% Infantry Combat Ability, +10% Naval Morale

Ashikaga Lineage: +20% Improve Relations

Though there are many important Shugo that can claim to be a cadet branch of the Ashikaga, we are the most powerful and important of them, and often represent the Ashikaga in matters of diplomacy with foreign nations.

The Eastern Army: +20% Land Forcelimit Modifier

Monopolization of the Kanrei: +1 Yearly Legitimacy

While there have traditionally been three candidates for the post of Kanrei – ourselves, the Hatakeyama and the Shiba – our continued control of the Capital and the decline of our two traditional rivals has seen this post increasingly in our hands to the point where it is a given that we will receive it, which only furthers our control over the Ashikaga.

Uchishu: -10% Liberty Desire in Subjects

The Uchishu is a council of key Hosokawa retainers who manage their domains out of our capital: by promoting certain branch clans and powerful kokujin to the Uchishu, we can maintain our system of provincial control by keeping our most powerful vassals close at hand.

(The Uchishu, historically, was one of the triumphs of the Hosokawa in the aftermath of the Onin War: while most of the other Shugo left Kyoto to manage their domains locally and suffered revolts or coups from vassals, the Hosokawa were able to remain in Kyoto – partly owing to all their province’s close proximity to it – and effectively manage their territories by integrating key or powerful vassals (such as the Miyoshi, Yakushuji, Kazawa, etc.) into their governing body at Kyoto. This system worked swimmingly under Masamoto, but broke down once his successors lost the confidence of the Uchishu since they kept murdering or killing members over court intrigue or partisan conflicts.)

Patronage of Sakai and Kyoto: -10% Advisor Cost

Granting certain rights to the merchants of Sakai and the courts in Kyoto will allow us to cultivate good relations with a large pool of talented individuals and groups who will be able to lend their skills and talents to the good of our clan.

(Sakai and Kyoto were the two most important cities in Kyoto: the former enough that it actually became a ‘free’ city and also the seat of a few temporary Shogunates. Imperial Courtiers and Sakai Merchants acted as much as Hosokawa agents during the height of their power as in their normal capacity, and the Hosokawa’s control of both these cities placed some of the most important minds in Japan at their disposal.)

Awaji Navies: +20% Naval Forcelimit Modifier

The naval clans of Awaji – the Atagi, Kan and so on – are an ideal proving ground for our naval forces. Combined with the maritime capacities of Sakai, we will always have a ready supply of ships and capable sailors when the need arises for them.

Horeki Reform: -10% Development Cost

Ambitions: +10% Institution Spread



Hatakeyama:

Traditions: +10% Land Morale, -10% Idea Cost

Inflated Horo: -10% Fire Damage Received

The Inflated Horo – a piece of thick cloth spread over a bamboo or wicker skeleton that, at high speeds, will balloon out – is an invention of ours. Not only does it designate those who wear it as being an important messenger or one of our mounted guards, but it also offers significant protection from projectiles.

(Not to give any Shogun 2 flashbacks, but the inflated horo was reputedly invented by Masanaga Hatakeyama during the Onin War. While they gradually fell out of favor, they were still useful for protecting its wearers from projectiles from the back or sides.)

Kanrei Claimant: -10% Aggressive Expansion Impact

The Hosokawa are gradually assuming more and more power, backed up by their continued appointment to Kanrei. This we cannot allow: we must attempt to wrest the title from them at every chance we get to not only prevent them from dominating the courts, but legitimize our actions elsewhere.

(While the Shiba heavily declined after the Onin War, the Hatakeyama remained an active force in Kyoto politics and in the war around the capital: Masanaga Hatakeyama’s usage of his gravitas as a former Kanrei to win out another debate on Shogunal succession in favor of Yoshitane Ashikaga – which saw the Hatakeyama surpass the Hosokawa as the premier force in Japanese politics – was actually the catalyst for Masamoto overthrowing Yoshitane while he and Masanaga were away on campaign in Kawachi to conquer another branch of the Hatakeyama.)

Resettle Refugees: -10% Development Cost

Etchu Kubo: -25% Unjustified Demands

It is not enough to merely prevent a monopoly on Kyoto: we must also ensure that the Shogun is safe from the machinations of court politics. We should relocate him to Etchu and establish the Shogunal Court there, where we can better carry out his true will elsewhere.

(While Masanaga Hatakeyama committed suicide after Masamoto Hosokawa usurped the Shogunate and appointed Yoshizumi Ashikaga as Shogun, Yoshitane didn’t take it sitting down: he fled to Etchu where he was sheltered by the Hatakeyama and established a rival court there, the aptly named Etchu Kubo. He would later attempt to seize Kyoto with a combined Hatakeyama-Jinbo-Asakura force, but was defeated and then fled to Yoshioki Ouchi in Suo.)

Break the Yusa: +10% National Tax Modifier

The Yusa clan are invaluable and talented retainers: capable administrators and strategists who have been invaluable to our clan. Unfortunately, they have realized that as well, and have become increasingly vocal about their importance; we cannot allow such arrogance to continue if we want to maintain effective control over our vassals.

(The Yusa were perhaps the single biggest detriment to the Hatakeyama as a whole, despite giving them some of their best strategists: the Yusa in Kawachi would overthrow their masters in cooperation with the Yasumi and rule the province de-facto, and then outright when they were confirmed by Nobunaga, and a decade later the Yusa in Noto would overthrow and expel the Hatakeyama there with the help of the Cho. Needless to say, they deserve a spot in a Hatakeyama NI set.)

Centralize Clan Succession: +10% Manpower Recovery Speed

One of the biggest weaknesses of our clan has been the incessant infighting amongst brothers over clan leadership: the Soshu and Bishu branches fight ceaselessly while our territories and powers have been stripped away from us by other Daimyo and rebellious vassals. We must lay down a series of concrete rules for succession to prevent any further needless conflicts over it.

(The main branch of the Hatakeyama was constantly torn apart by infighting: the conflict between Yoshinari and Masanaga Hatakeyama was one of the catalysts for the Onin War, and Masanaga was overthrown as he and Yoshitane were in Kawachi to subdue the late Yoshinari’s son and heir. The conflicts hardly ended there: Hisanobu Hatakeyama, Masanaga’s successor, fought with his cousin, and Hisanobu’s sons – Tanenaga and Nagatsune – fought with each other as well. It wasn’t until Takamasa Hatakeyama that some level of strong leadership was restored to the Hatakeyama [he would actually be one of the biggest opponents of the Miyoshi], only for that to be undone when the Yusa rebelled and exiled him to his lands in Kii.)

Religious Movements: +15% Religious Unity

Our lands have been the center of a number of new religious movements in Japan: from the Shingon of Koya, to the growth of Jodo-Shinshu in Kii and Etchu, to the jinaimachi temple-complexes of Kawachi, to even the arrival of Christianity. Rather than upsetting a powerful segment of our domain by attempting to force conformity, we should tolerate the presence of these sometimes quarrelsome communities.

(Most of the Hatakeyama provinces – Kii, Kawachi and Etchu – would become hotbeds of the Ikko-shu movement, and the Hatakeyama would find themselves aligned with a number of these groups as it suited them. Additionally, Kii already had pre-established importance for a large number of Buddhist sects, and a number of the Hatakeyama, Takamasa included, would also convert to Christianity after the nadir of the clan.)

Ambition: +1 Leader Land Shock


Takeda:

Traditions: -10% Cavalry Cost, +5% Discipline

(While Morale isn’t very suitable for the Takeda – Takeda vassals defected at an unprecedented rate during the Oda’s invasion – they usually had superior tactics to their opponents and even in Harunobu’s time [before the rise of their feared cavalry] were able to defeat the Shinano clans.)

Koshu Hatto: -1 Global Unrest

(A law code really fits itself more to this than idea cost, especially as the Koshu Hatto was immensely popular with the peasantry of Kai since it abolished the death penalty in most offenses, replaced it with generally lenient fines, and prevented most abuses from the samurai. The flavor text itself wouldn’t even need to be changed.)

Shugo of River Dams: +10% Goods Produced

Koyo Gunka: -10% Idea Cost

(Whereas this is much more suitable to idea cost. The Koyo Gunka is considered to be one of the most reliable sources of the Sengoku period: compiled by Masanobu Kosaka and Kagenori Obata [though now believed to have actually been largely ghostwritten by the Hoshina who just stamped their namse on the cover] it covers all the tactics and strategies the Takeda used, exact statistics in their battles including about the composition of the 33,000 strong Takeda army at its height, a treatise on martial arts ostensibly written by Kansuke Yamamoto, reflections on what an ideal Sengoku Daimyo should be like, some of the administrative policies of the Takeda, and so forth.)

Information Network: +10% Spy Offence, +10% Spy Defense

Twenty-Four Generals: +0.5 Army Tradition

Red Brigade: +15% Cavalry Combat Ability

Even amongst our many capable generals, a few stand out: one of them leads our feared Red Brigade, an elite cavalry unit named so for the red armor they wear into battle. They command the vanguard in all our battles, charging ahead with an unmatched impetus and ferocity, and striking fear into all our foes.

(While there is an ongoing academic debate over the extent of the Takeda’s reliance on cavalry, not even the most die-hard revisionists would deny the existence of Masakage Yamagata’s Red Brigade, which is without a doubt the most famous cavalry unit in Japanese history. As the Takeda still had the most effective cavalry in Japan, and the Kiso-uma were the hardiest horses in Japan, they are at least deserving of their own idea [as the Takeda as a cavalry power was an advent that occurred with later Takeda Daimyo, and would be unsuitable as a tradition] and for that matter having a somewhat better cavalry than other Japanese clans. As it stands, the Shiba have equal cavalry and the Ogasawara and Nanbu have better cavalry ideas [despite the latter not having Cav. Ability].)

Furinkazan: +1 Leader Land Shock

We must be as swift as wind, as silent as forest, as fierce as fire, and as unshakeable as the mountains. This shall be our banner, our rallying cry, and all will know to fear it.

(The battle standard of Shingen Takeda was supposedly based on the above excerpts from Sun Tzu’s Art of War: while the more famous for character version that merely reads ‘Wind, Forest, Fire, Mountain’ is considered to be a modern fabrication, the authenticity of a standard bearing the full quote is usually not in question, and it is undeniably one of the most famous pieces of iconography from the Takeda.)

Ambition: +10% Shock Damage


Uesugi:

Traditions: -1% Yearly Army Tradition, -1% Yearly Prestige Decay

Kanto Kanrei: +1 Yearly Prestige

Custodians of Tsurugaoka Hachimangu: +0.5 Yearly Army Tradition

The Tsurugaoka Hachimangu in Kamakura is the most important shrine in eastern Japan: not only for its religious connotations, but for being a monument of the Minamoto themselves. In emulation of this great clan, and in a display of our authority as its caretakers and protectors, we should conduct as many official ceremonies here as possible.

(During his Kanto Campaign, Kenshin Uesugi had himself officially crowned Kanrei at the Tsurugaoka Hachimangu, in addition to changing his name there – the importance of such speaks for itself.)

Yamanouchi and Ogigayatsu Branches: +1 Diplomatic Relations

While we are one clan, we are divided into a number of branches: the Yamanouchi and Ogigayatsu Uesugi hold vast tracts of land and act independently from us at times. Maintaining good relations with these cadet branches – and their vassals, if need be – will be vital to our success as a united clan.

Nokizaru: +20% Spy Offence

God of War: +10% Land Morale

A Gift of Salt: +1 Diplomatic Reputation

War is to be fought with spears and swords, not rice and salt. Should a neighboring domain be suffering from famine or embargo, even should they be a mortal enemy, we have a duty to aid them and the Imperial subjects they rule over.

(In reaction to Shingen’s break with the Imagawa, the Hojo and Imagawa worked together to attack the Takeda economically as well as militarily, imposing a salt embargo on Kai that sent the province’s economy into a bit of a tailspin. Kenshin thought this was underhanded and ordered Echigo merchants to open up trade with Kai again, and set prices of salt to prevent them from exploiting the market.)

Agakita-Shu: +10% Infantry Combat Ability

(Skilled does not necessitate discipline – additionally, the Uesugi were known for the gunnery skills during Kagekatsu’s rein, primarily due to their performance at Osaka.)

Ambition: +10% National Tax Modifier

(The during their days as Yonezawa domain, the Uesugi were suffered severe financial deficits – these were alleviated during the rule of Harunori Uesugi, whose austerity reforms and public works projects managed to eliminate a century’s worth of debt [roughly 200,000 ryo] and prevent the worst effects of famine. He was later lauded for his leadership by the Shogunate.)


Nanbu:

Traditions: -10% Construction Cost, +10% Cavalry Ability

Genji in the North: +10% Land Morale

Coalition of Nanbu Branches: +1 Leaders without Upkeep

Our clan’s administration is more flexible than most: instead our clan is a coalition of many cousins, each ruling over their own part of our domain. Clan leadership is much more contingent upon election and consensus amongst the Nanbu branches than most clans, and we are able to call upon a larger pool of generals as a result.

(The Nanbu were one of the most decentralized clans in Japan – really a condition endemic to the Tohoku clans in general – and had a large number of branches, each ruling their own petty fiefdom out of one of Nukanobu’s castles. In spite of this they all usually got along and maintained the integrity of the Nanbu.)

Owner of the Nine Gates: -10% Cavalry Cost

Bailey Castles: +1 Hostile Attrition

Tohoku is largely bereft of large, flat plains, and so is unsuitable for building massive donjons in our castles. Most clans work around this: we will abstain from it entirely, and with the space and material that a donjon would demand available, we will be able to add extra wards and baileys to our mountain castles to further frustrate our foes.

(Almost all of the major castles in the Nanbu domain – Sannohe, Kunnohe, Ne, Shichinohe and the later Hachinohe – all lacked donjons, but had a larger number of baileys than most castles.)

Chosonji Temple: +1 Yearly Prestige

(It seems like the Oshu-Fujiwara’s main temple would lend itself better to prestige than shock damage.)

Full Moon of the Nanbu: -10% Province Warscore Cost

We cannot be content with our current domain: we must make our lands so vast that in the time it takes to cross them, a half-moon shall become a full moon!

(Under Harumasa Nanbu, the Nanbu clan territories expanded to such an extent that it was said in the time it took to cross them, a half-moon would become a full moon.)

Industries of Rikugo: +10% Production Efficiency

Rikugo might not be fertile, but it is not wanting in natural resources: from rich iron mines to vast beech forests, and the longest river in Tohoku, to even dying gold deposits, we have a vast amount of natural resources to make up for a lack of arable land.

Ambition: -10% Fire Damage Received


(Below are the three contingent NI sets. I will largely refrain from adding in extraneous historical information except in a few cases, as this thread is long enough as is.)


Rokkaku:

Traditions: +1 Diplomatic Reputation, -10% Development Cost

Omi Genji: +10% Infantry Combat Ability

While Omi has traditionally been divided in two halves – us in the south, and our cousins the Kyogoku in the north – we are the true leaders of the Genji in Omi and the scions of Takauji Sasaki, and live up to our reputation as such.

Supporters of the Ashikaga: +1 Diplomat

We have a well established reputation as being the most – and perhaps only – reliable allies the Ashikaga have, lending our military strength and economic might to the Shogunate time and time again against the machinations of the Hosokawa. They, in turn, keep our interests at heart as well.

Shirowari Polices: -0.05 Monthly Autonomy

To prevent our retainers from becoming too powerful in proportion to ourselves – an epidemic that seems to have seized every clan in Japan – we shall institute a policy that no vassal domain may hold more than one castle.

Abolition of the Za: +10% Goods Produced

The stranglehold the Za guilds exercise over the market is not only choking potential growth, but is also threatening our authority in the economic sphere. Breaking down some of these monopolies will rectify both of those issues.

Rokkaku-shi Shikimoku: -1 Global Unrest

While many house codes focus on curtailing the rights and freedoms of the vassals, we should instead grant some – albeit negligible – in ours: as such, we will be able to maintain the loyalty of our vassals in the face of our accumulation of power.

Sasaki-Ryu: +10% Cavalry Combat Ability

After inviting some of the best archers of the age to reside within our domain, we have concocted a new, modern school of horse archery: Sasaki-Ryu. Even in this age of guns, this will allow us to maintain the effectiveness of more traditional methods of warfare.

Curtail the Kokujin: -10% Diplomatic Annexation Cost

The many Kokujin of northern Omi, Iga and northern Ise, while valuable as allies, are also quarrelsome as vassals. Expanding many of the laws we have for our direct retainer band to cover these groups will allows us to effectively integrate them and their territories into our clan structure.

Ambition: -10% Land Maintenance Modifier


Ashina:

Traditions: +15% Improve Relations, +15% Land Forcelimit Modifier

Gatekeeper of the North: +10% Shock Damage

The northern approach to the Aizu basin is guarded by the fearsome Anazawa clan: their head famed as the Gatekeeper of the North for his valiant defense of our domain against incursion from our unscrupulous neighbors.

Students of Shukei: +1 Prestige

In this age, it is not merely enough to be a great warrior: one must also display a certain aptitude towards the arts if he desires any measure of respect. To that end, we should invite prominent painters from Kanto to come north and give our Daimyo lessons.

Mediation of Succession: +1 Diplomatic Reputation

Neighboring domains often find themselves torn apart over petty disputes over succession while ours remains stable: we should use this to our advantage and interfere in the succession conflicts, be it in supporting one side or helping both to come to an agreement.

Prohibition Edicts: +5% Discipline

A lord who is drunk cannot lead. We should prohibit the sale and consumption of sake in our personal lands to ensure that our Daimyo and his kin will always have a clear head.

Cultivate the Aizu Basin: -10% Development Cost

The Aizu basin is one of the few fertile areas in Tohoku, but it is still underdeveloped compared to the rest of Japan. We should launch a campaign of town-building and irrigation to help improve the state of the land.

Assimilation through Adoption: +1 Yearly Legitimacy

When most clans bring another into their fold through adoption, it is almost invariably is by either sending a brother or son to succeed to leadership of that clan: we will do the inverse, and instead invite the heads of other clans to assume our name when the need arises. This way we may ensure that our line does not die out owing to some misguided hubris, while adding the lands of whatever clan will be assuming our mantle to our own.

Largest Castle of Tohoku: -10% Construction Cost

As Aizu is flatland, it is one of the few places in Tohoku that can support a truly large castle. We will take advantage of this, and build a massive complex using the latest technology – a castle so large that it will be compared to the great ones of Kansai.

Ambition: -10% Fort Maintenance Cost


Mogami:

Traditions: +15% Defensiveness, +20% Spy Offense

Ushu Tandai: -25% Cost to Fabricate Claims

We were appointed Ushu Tandai for our efforts in defeating the supporters of the Southern Court in Tohoku: this gives us a strong, if not somewhat vague, claim over the whole of Dewa.

Shields of the Mogami: -10% Shock Damage Received

Our lands are defended from invasions by a cadre of vassals calling themselves the Shields of the Mogami – while they stand, we will not fall.

Control of the Mogami River: +10% Provincial Trade Power

The Mogami River is considered to be one of the most rapid rivers in Japan, and is what makes the Shonai plains as valuable as they are. Extensive work in river damming will not only help our farmlands, but will make navigating the river much easier.

Cultivation of the Shonai: +10% Domestic Trade Power

The Shonai plain is the most fertile area in Dewa: further irrigation of it will be vital to the clan’s economy, and the wellbeing of our peasantry.

Importation of Sakai Gunsmiths: +10% Fire Damage

Guns are becoming increasingly common across Japan, but Tohoku is often bereft of both gunsmiths and the materials required to make them. Inviting a number of gunsmiths from Sakai to set up shop in our domain will put us ahead of our neighbors.

Encourage Reading of the Classics: -10% Idea Cost

The most capable vassals are often the most educated. We should encourage reading of classics such as the Ise Monogatari and the Genji Monogatari, as well as foster the composition and sharing of Renga.

Tiger of Dewa: +5% Discipline

We have become famed for our prowess on the battlefield; the ability to repulse any foe from our lands or break any who stand in our way. We are truly deserving of the moniker the Tiger of Dewa.

Ambition: -10% Administrative Technology Cost


Clans Still Using Daimyo NIs:

Mori:

Traditions: +20% Defensiveness, +20% Galley Combat Ability

Seto Inland Navy: +1 Yearly Navy Tradition

The pirates and clans of southern Aki and the Seto Islands are some of the best sailors in Japan: making them the backbone of our navy will make it the strongest and most capable in Japan.

Itsukushima Shrine: +1 Tolerance of the True Faith, +1% Missionary Strength

The Itsukushima Shrine is one of the most sacred places in all Japan; our custodianship of it is one of our most important duties, and the piety we show in our conduct reflects well upon us.

Three Arrows: +1 Yearly Legitimacy

The Lesson of the Three Arrows is one of the most famous of the period: one arrow is easily broken, but three together are strong. And as such, while the branch clans continue to support the main clan, our house as a whole will not be shaken.

Two Rivers: -1% Yearly Army Tradition Decay

Just like the two great rivers that run through our lands and protect them, so do the Kikkawa and Kobayakawa clans protect the Mori: one from the south, and one from the north.

Contentment with Chugoku: +1 Diplomatic Reputation

It is said that those who aim for Japan will merely end up with Chugoku – regardless of how true this is, let it be known that we will not attempt to expand our demesne beyond the confines of the region, and instead remain as its guardians from outside threats. Wherever they may lay.

Tax the Four Whites: +10% National Tax Modifier

In times of hardship, we may find it prudent to lay down special taxes on the so-called ‘four whites’: rice, wax, paper and salt. While unpopular, these measures will help us maintain financial solvency and avoid worse disasters regardless of what situation arises.

Total Unity: +5% Discipline

We must strive for total unity in our domain – not just amongst the members of our clan, but with the common people as well. Make it known that we equally value the lives of all those underneath our banner, and they will flock to it: one million hearts in support of a single mind.

Ambition: +25% Global Manpower Modifier


Chosokabe:

Traditions: +10% Naval Morale, -10% Land Maintenance Modifier

Farmer-Militia System: +10% Production Efficiency

We have invented a system where all men of Tosa, both samurai and peasant, farm in peace and fight in war. Not only does this give our clan a degree of unity that others lack, but it helps improve our agricultural output and sustain our army.

Tosa Kinship: -1 Global Unrest

It should be our highest goal to unite all the clans of Tosa; offering up spare sons to allies and integrating the retainers of the clans we destroy will provide the province with a stable enough base that the Chosokabe may rightfully be called the Fathers of Tosa.

Unification of Shikoku: -10% Core Creation Cost

Shikoku as a whole is poor and generally isolated from the rest of Japan: no one desires to unify it, and there has long been consensus that it would not be worth the effort in doing so. Let us prove such a notion wrong.

One-Hundred Article Code: +0.15 Monthly Absolutism

As our rule spans to cover more and more territory, our administration will need to adapt as well. Compiling the longest, most comprehensive house code in Japanese history that defines everything from the powers of the daimyo to public drunkenness will ensure we can effectively control our new holdings.

Build Castle-Towns in Kochi: -10% Development Cost

If we are to flourish economically, we need a strong economic center: the Kochi plain is the most fertile area in Tosa, and would be the most suitable to build a series of new castle-towns in to revitalize the province.

Lumbermills of Tosa: +5% Ship Durability

Tosa is most famous for the quantity and quality of its lumber. While it is a valuable export and will help fuel our building projects, it can also be best used in creating sturdier ships for our navy.

Bears of Tosa: +10% Land Morale

The men of Tosa are strong, harsh conditions drilling a ferocity into them few can boast: even if we stand against the whole nation, we will still stand.

Ambition: +10% Infantry Combat Ability



Akamatsu:

Traditions: -10% Land Maintenance Modifier, -25% Unjustified Demands

Shogun Killers: -25% Cost to Fabricate Claims

While having the blood of a Shogun upon our hands is a black stain on our honor, that we were able to commit such a crime and climb back to relevance thereafter is the sign of a new age where the Shogun’s power is waning.

Genji of Harima: +5% Discipline

We are the traditional Shugo of Harima, Bizen and Mimasaka, and have been for centuries: we and the clans under our control do not look kindly upon other clans attempting to impose themselves upon us, and we will rebound against them regardless of the odds.

Appointment to Samurai-Dokoro: -10% Regiment Cost

The Akamatsu are one of the four families that have been traditionally appointed to the Samurai-Dokoro: this has given us experience in not only policing, but in raising and recruiting forces.

Renovation of Himeji Castle: -10% Construction Cost

Himeji Castle is located in an ideal position to control Harima, but it is in a pitiable state for its relevance: we should launch a series of projects to expand it into one of the greatest castles in Japan.

Support of the Uragami: +15% Land Forcelimit Modifier

The Uragami are one of many samurai groups of Bizen, but owing to their position as both chief retainers and their roots as priests, they are perhaps the most important. Maintaining good relationships with this critical vassal will be key to maintaining the loyalty of the Bizen clans.

Record of the Akamatsu: +1 Yearly Prestige

We should commission one of our retainers to record the history of our prestigious clan, so that even if our domain falls into ruin once more, our name will not.

Shinmen Clan: +0.5 Yearly Army Tradition

The Shinmen Clan are one of our cadet branches famous for producing swordsmen; maintaining good ties with them will see our samurai drilled by some of the best in Japan.

Ambition: +50% Prestige from Land Battles



Asakura:

Traditions: +10% Production Efficiency, +10% Land Morale

Echizen Paper and Ceramics: +10% Goods Produced

Echizen is one of the oldest and largest producers of traditional washi paper and ceramics in the nation: industries we proudly sponsor.

Toshikage Jushichikago: +25% Land Forcelimit Modifier

One of the earliest house codes in Japan, this seventeen article code lays down guidelines for how to effectively control vassals, mobilize our domain’s military, and maintain a proper budget. These principles should be enacted into law and serve as the guiding ideals behind our rule.

Lords of the Footsoldiery: +10% Infantry Combat Ability

It is entirely improper of us to demand the loyalty of our vassals and foot soldiers and not suffer with them: our commanders should dine with our infantry, help treat the wounded, and provide comfort for the families of the fallen. Through such actions our people will come to admire our rule and fight harder for it.

Legitimization of Gekokujo: +1 Yearly Legitimacy

We might have been the first to overthrow our Shugo overlords, but we certainly recognize the value of being legitimized in our rule by the Shogunate. Petitioning the court for governorship and defeating lawsuits sent against us by our former masters will ensure our rule remains unchallenged.

Kyoto Culture: -10% Idea Cost

As war ravages the capital, we should seek to recreate the full width and breadth of Kyoto’s culture in Echizen: from an exodus of prominent families to even housing the Shogun himself if need be, we will transform Echizen into the new cultural epicenter of Japan.

Island of Peace: -10% Development Cost

Even as war wages around us, and even as we intervene in the conflicts of our neighbors, our domain remains largely untouched: between clever alliances with Ikko groups and establishing alliances with clans situated between us and our old rivals, we have prevented the fallout of war from spreading to Echizen, and seen it grow as a result.

Asakura Soteki Waki: -1% Army Tradition Decay

“The warrior may be called a beast or a dog: the main thing is winning.”

Ambition: +1 Diplomatic Reputation



Kitabatake:

Traditions: +10% Land Morale, +10% Provincial Trade Power

Jinno Shotoki: -10% Idea Cost

The Jinno Shotoki was written by Chikafusa Kitabatake, and is considered one of the seminal pieces of both the age and of Shintoism itself. In addition to legitimizing the Southern Court, it also breaks with all previous teleological norms.

Ise Grand Shrine: +2 Tolerance of the True Faith

The Ise Grand Shrine is perhaps the most important shrine in Shintoism, where some of the Sacred Mirror and Amaterasu herself are purported to reside. Pilgrims flock from all over Japan to visit this sacred place, and it is our divine duty as its custodians to ensure that it and its pilgrims are properly cared for.

Poetry Contests: +10% Institution Spread

We should organize great poetry gatherings and invite Daimyo, poets and scholars from all over the Kinai to participate. Not only will this foster closer ties to a number of important factions, but allow for the spread of ideas into our realm.

Shima Pirates: +1 Yearly Navy Tradition, +15% Privateer Efficiency

Shima is home to the most prominent piratical groups on the Tokai Sea: the Ohama and Kuki. Rather than attempting to stamp them out, we can instead overlook some of their less scrupulous activities in return for their fealty.

Invite Swordmasters: +0.5 Yearly Army Tradition

Cultural pursuits are well, but one can only truly unite Japan by the sword. And to that end, we should invite as many of the great swordmasters of the land to teach our Daimyo as possible.

Break the Seishu Four: +10% National Tax Modifier

The clans of northern Ise – the Seishu Four, as they’re colloquially called – continue to resist the authority of our clan. Breaking their independence once and for all will see the most fertile part of Ise come directly into our hands.

Expansion of Anotsu: +10% Trade Efficiency

The castle-town of Anotsu is situated in an ideal spot to manage trade along the Tokaido, both land and sea based. Investing in the growth of this town until it is one of the major stops along the route will see our coffers burgeon.

Ambition: +1 Yearly Prestige



Oda:

(My overall complaints with the Oda’s idea set are twofold: it marginalizes the more civil side of the Oda, and its emphasis on leader quality is entirely unbefitting of the Oda altogether. While my original Oda idea set did have five military ideas in the body, as the revealed one does, one of the traditions and the ambition were both civil, which helped balance the set with four of ten of the ideas being civil – something lacking in the new set revealed in the previous dev diary, with only two bonuses being civil [I would assume CC and PCW are not counted]. The second would be the emphasis on leader pips: on both a thematic and a bonus level it is unfitting. While better officers was indeed one of Nobunaga’s goals, the bedrock of the Oda army was not supposed to be a cabal of a few retainers – Nobunaga distrusted and even scorned a number of his inner circle – and should instead reflect the quality of the overall army [that Discipline was excluded from the set in favor of morale and leader pips was my biggest quibble with the choice, nevermind including them at the expense of more Tolerance or trade]. The second would be that some of the pips simply don’t add up with history: the only Oda commanders who were really known for feats that could be best attributed to shock were Katsuie Shibata and Toshiie Maeda, and overall the Oda army just was not impressive at all when it came to that. Additionally, a siege bonus is perhaps the most unfitting military bonus that could be given to the Oda – they choked in practically all of their major sieges: such as Inabayama, Nagashima, Odani, Ishiyama, a large number of the sieges in Hideyoshi and Mitsuhide’s campaigns into Chugoku, etc. I would like to seek to rectify these errors.)

Traditions: +10% Infantry Combat Ability, +10% Trade Efficiency

(The Trade Efficiency that replaces the somewhat out-of-place Morale boost is to represent the Oda’s close relationship with the merchants of Tsushima and Kuwana, nevermind all of Nobunaga’s laissez faire trade policies later. Inf. Ability stays cuz Oda.)

Rakuichi Rakuza: +10% Goods Produced

Meritocracy: +5% Discipline

Most clans promote on blood ties and seniority, ignoring the possible talent ronin or even ashigaru might hold. We will not be bound by such conventions: in promoting largely on skill, we will ensure that we will have a large, professional corp of talented officers and commanders leading every regiment of our army.

Tenka Fubu: -10% Core Creation Cost, -10% Province Warscore Cost

(Pleasantly surprised PWC was actually included with this, but it’s certainly fitting.)

A New Order: +0.5 Yearly Army Tradition

Our expansion has been challenged time and time again by coalitions of the preeminent powers in Japan: even the Shoguns themselves have been active in attempting to halt our rise to power, and we have been left isolated more than once. And yet all that has accomplished is allowing us to hone our army and do away with many of the old and rotting institutions that plague Japan.

(One of the biggest advantages the Oda army had was that it was, excepting for an interim year here or there, always at war. From the Battle of Okehazama to the Incident at Honnoji, only a few years passed that the Oda were not busy fighting someone, and after 1568 that someone was invariable part of a coalition raised against them, with the intent design to attack them on all fronts. The constant state of warfare the Oda were in combined with overcoming the coalitions raised against them really need to be represented in their idea set.)

Triple Firing: +10% Fire Damage

Kokudaka System: +20% Global Manpower Modifier

(Or presumably whatever name you’ll give for oda_kenchi.)

Patronization of the Jesuits: -5% Technology Cost

Ambition: +2 Tolerance of Heathens

(It is egregious that the Oda clan – arguably the biggest proponents of Christianity in Japan aside from the Otomo themselves, do not get a bonus to Heathen Tolerance. Nobunaga’s toleration is well known – what is not is that Nobutada Oda allowed his infant son, Hidenobu [who would go on to be clan head under Hideyoshi’s ‘guardianship’], to be baptized and was about as open to the missionaries as his father was, that Nobunaga’s second son Nobutaka also encouraged the spread of Christianity in his fief, that Nobunaga’s third son Nobukatsu converted, as did Nobunaga’s younger brother, Nagamasu, who held land even after Sekigahara. In short the Oda maintained a close relationship to Christianity even without Nobunaga, and I find it extremely disappointing they get nothing to encourage them to go Humanist while the Ito can get +2 Tolerance of Heathens.)



Tokugawa:

Traditions: -10% Stability Cost, +10% Shock Damage

Mikawa Pride: +10% Land Morale

The men of Mikawa are proud warriors: our honor dictates that we cannot turn our backs on a battle, regardless of the odds arrayed against us.

Four Guardian Kings: +1 Leaders Without Upkeep

Our Daimyo does not stand alone. A pool of capable retainers dutifully follows his every order, and amongst them stands four truly extraordinary individuals who serve as the pillars of our clan.

Metsuke: -0.1 Yearly Corruption

As we gain more land, we gain more vassals. To root out corruption and dissidence, and ensure that we are not being withheld anything, we should establish a cabal of overseers known as the Metsuke.

Fudai and Tozama Clans: +20% National Manpower Modifier

To ensure that the clans most loyal to us are in the most important positions throughout the land, we will establish divisions between our vassals: the Fudai and Tozama. Fudai are to be the vassals we rely upon the most, granted key positions throughout Japan owing to their generational service to us, while Tozama are to be regional clans that must strive to have our confidence.

Revive the Red Brigade: +5% Discipline

The famous Red Brigade that once struck terror into the hearts of men now lies in ruin, with most of its surviving members reduced to vagrancy. Such a state of affairs should not be allowed to continue: gathering up the survivors and placing them under the command of one of our most reliable commanders will see this group lend its strength to our military.

Sakoku: +2% Missionary Strength

(Desc as is.)

Sankin-Kotai: -2 Global Unrest

(Desc as is.)

Ambition: +10% National Tax Modifier


Hojo:

Traditions: +5% Discipline, +25% Defensiveness

The Hojo Name: +1 Yearly Legitimacy

The Hojo were the old regents of the Kamakura Shogunate: the true power in Japan before the rise of the Ashikaga. As we have seized Kamakura and overthrown the Shogunate’s representative in Kanto, it is all too fitting that we would assume that name for our new dynasty.

Twenty-One Article Code: -1 Global Unrest

Our rule must be legitimate in the eyes of our subjects, not our erstwhile masters in Kyoto: writing up a short collection of rules to ensure the proper treatment of the citizenry and that our vassals are to behave in a manner befitting of their rank, we will be able to maintain the unity of our clan and the respect of the people.

Five Banners Brigade: +10% Land Morale

An increasingly common sight on any battlefield we set foot on are a number of brigades with increasingly colorful and flashy banners: these serve to inspire our men in letting them know the best of our warriors and commanders are with them.

Expand Kanto’s Road Networks: +20% Domestic Trade Power

Kanto has been devastated by continuous warfare between the Uesugi, Kubo, and other local clans. One of the first steps we must take to restore some of its prosperity is to refurbish its road networks and post stations to foster the growth of trade.

Extensive Cadastral Surveys: +20% National Manpower Modifier

We are constantly pressed from all sides, and so we must know exactly how many men we will be able to field. Conducting a series of intensive cadastral surveys will resolve this question.

Low Kokudaka Taxes: -10% Development Cost

Most domains demand either 6/10ths or 7/10ths in rice taxes from the peasantry – we will demand only 4/10ths. Not only will we win the gratitude of the people for this, but we will offer them room to prosper as well.

Standardized Kandaka System: +10% National Tax Modifier

Rice is often as good as currency in this day and age, but we will make use of a more sophisticated system: the Kandaka, or payment in coin. By minting our own coinage, we will be able to have an effective cash economy and larger coffers than our rivals.

Ambition: -10% Cost of Reducing War Exhaustion Costs
 
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Phalanx300

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That Shogunate system sounds like it would be a vast improvement. I have to agree that the current system doesn't at all simulate the Sengoku Jidai and this suggestion sounds like it would be better at that while being interesting as well.

Your province/nation/culture changes sounds interesting as well. The altered sea zones really are a must, its annoying that one piece of shore has attrition really for your merchant fleets.

Also Japan doesn't need to lose its NI. Could work like Italy. Or even better: When forming Japan the players gets to choose whether to keep its Daimyo NI or pick the Japan NI. (This should also be implemented for other formable nations!)
 
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Grand Historian

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That Shogunate system sounds like it would be a vast improvement. I have to agree that the current system doesn't at all simulate the Sengoku Jidai and this suggestion sounds like it would be better at that while being interesting as well.

Your province/nation/culture changes sounds interesting as well. The altered sea zones really are a must, its annoying that one piece of shore has attrition really for your merchant fleets.

Also Japan doesn't need to lose its NI. Could work like Italy. Or even better: When forming Japan the players gets to choose whether to keep its Daimyo NI or pick the Japan NI. (This should also be implemented for other formable nations!)

Thank you!

Though, respectfully, I have to disagree about Japan losing it's NI's if some of the Daimyo were to gain NI's. The problem is that the first half are Ashikaga-era policies, who would no longer be playable, and the second half are Tokugawa-era policies, which would have to be recycled for them. It would make more sense for the Daimyo that unifies Japan to use their own policies than ones from the defunct and feeble Ashikaga Shogunate.

Edit: Welp, 1.14 kinda tossed this to the wind.
 
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If Wiz does not improve Grorious Nippom next patch, it will be dishonorabre and he must commit Sepukku.
 
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*bows in allegiance*

(p.s. you still want unified Uesugi?)

Yeah. Sadly, I think the problem with that is it's more in Iaponia's territory; divide the Uesugi, then that sets a precedence to divide a lot of the Shugo as well.
 
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Sackett

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Okay, so this post has drawn me out of lurkerdom, since Japan is one of my nations of interest.

I would agree that the current Shogun government is rather bland. I like the new system you are proposing but I do want to suggest that the person who holds the Shogunate still get +4 Diplomatic relations. For one thing, under your own system the winner of a Shogunate war would end up with multiple vassals, which could cripple the winner diplomatically. Especially with the increase in provinces and Daimyo. (And if you really want to help out, also grant a +1 Diplomat the way the HRE does).

Furthermore, there is the fun little tactic of staying a Shogunate the whole game, and getting a bunch of vassals (get the right ideas and you can get up to 12 diplomatic relations). Not a competitive way of playing, but fun in it's own right. Adding the + Diplomatic relations would preserve that option.

But other then that I wholly approve of changing the Shogunate system, because right now early game Japan tends to be pretty boring.

Now, onto the religious question.

Well... frankly the whole "Eastern" religious group is messed up. Despite textbooks grouping them together Buddhism, Confucianism and Shintoism are not "heretics" of each other. Confucianism is a philosophy, and Shintoism is pagan. No seriously, Shintoism is a highly advanced form of Animism. Putting them in the "Eastern" religious group makes about as much sense as declaring the Norse as Christian heretics.

So here is my idea for how Shintoism could work (and I'll throw in a suggestion for Confucianism as well).

First, move Shinto to the Pagan group.

Second, I would suggest a mechanic to differentiate between Shrine Shinto (aka State Shinto) and Folk Shinto. Not sure what the best word is for it, but it's something like "Formality." At first I thought "Tradition" but then I realized that might be confusing. We'd need someone to wordsmith the name to something that sounds better.

You have a scale of 0 to 100 (starting at 50). 100 being perfected Shrine Shinto, and 0 meaning Folk Shinto dominates. Things effected include:

Yearly Bonus to Legitimacy: +0.5 at 100, +0 at 50, -0.5 at 0
Global Missionary Strength: +1% at 100, +0% at 50, -1% at 0
Local Missionary Strength: -4% at 100, -2% at 50, -0% at 0
Tolerance of Heathens: -2 at 100, -1 at 50, +0 at 0
Tolerance of Heretics: -1 at 100, +0 at 50, +1 at 0
Yearly Bonus to Autonomy: -0.1 at 100, -0.05 at 50, +0.0 at 0

With the effects slowly increasing or decreasing as you move up or down the scale.

Additionally, if you get to 100 you also get +1 missionary and -30% stability cost, while if you get to 0 you get -1 missionary and +30% religious unity. (Rewards for going and sticking with a certain type).

Basically, if you are Shrine Shinto you gain missionary power, are harder to convert, and gain legitimacy and lower autonomy (the main purposes of State Shinto), while if you go Folk Shinto you lose missionary strength and legitimacy, but gain tolerance, and more importantly you get to use the "assimilation" mechanic (read more on this below). Also, this means at the start the benefit of Shinto are essentially the same except that the +morale is replaced with -.05 yearly autonomy (a more fitting bonus really).

There would of course be events that could move you towards Shrine Shinto or Folk Shinto depending on your response choice, but the main way you would effect it would be by assimilation or conversion actions.

Conversion is simply the existing mechanic. Whenever you convert a province to Shintoism you would gain +X "Formality" on the scale, with X = (converted province base tax) - (converted province base tax)(tolerance of the former religion of the converted province). So you would gain more formality points for converting heathens, and the more formality you have, the more you will gain for conversions (it snowballs). Note that this means getting Humanism ideas would make it really hard to gain formality points.

The new mechanic that makes the Folk Shinto option interesting is what I am calling "Assimilation" because one of the reasons Shinto is so difficult to convert is because it assimilates portions of other religious ideas very easily. For example, Buddhism and Confucianism are both assimilated by Shinto so that Shinto remains the primary religion, but Buddhists and Confucians are no longer considered as foreign... you might even call them heretics?

Shinto may even the capability of assimilating more missionary religions such as Christianity. In fact, hidden Christians survived for a long time in Japan by adopting religious rituals of Folk Shinto to conceal their Christian beliefs. This was a common tactic of the Catholics (especially the Jesuits). But in a twist, some of these hidden Christians essentially became Shinto in all but name. (There has even been some "what if" theorizing on what might have happened if the Shogun had chosen to try and assimilate the hidden Christians instead of killing them all).

So this is sort of my inspiration for the "Assimilation" mechanic. Think of it as the official state religion adopting other religious rituals to make those religions fit better into the realm.

There would be two parts to assimilation, one for heathens and one for heretics. The heathen part would take place on the national religion page. If you have at least one province under your direct control that is heathen, then you have the option to "assimilate" that religion for the cost of -X formality points, and -25 admin points, and takes X months to complete. Where X = (base tax of all owned provinces sharing the assimilated religion).

The formality cost is also calculated when you add provinces, so if you assimilated Confucianism (heathen now that Japan is in the Pagan group) when you had one province at 8 base tax you would have Confucianism listed as "Assimilated" and have -8 formality points. But if after another war you added a 12 base tax Confucianism province you would get another -12 formality points. Similarly if you lose a province. Think of this as the state religion having to make more and more concessions as the number of Confucians grow to keep them assimilated.

What's the benefit of assimilating heathen religions? That religion changes to "heretic" for all your nation's calculations. How much are they tolerated, and how hard is it to convert them, etc.

What it does not do is it does not change how other nations view you. So if you assimilate Catholicism you will now treat Catholics as heretics, but Catholic nations will still treat you as heathen.

Think of it as the state religion adopting other religious rituals so that ordinary people start thinking of those other religions as splinters of the state religion. It doesn't effect how foreign nations think about things, but it changes the way your people treat each other.

If you have an assimilated religion you could also "Purge" the state religion of those rituals. At the cost of -25 admin points, a gain of +X formality points, +10% unrest in provinces with the purged religion for the duration, and it takes X months to complete. Where X = (base tax of all owned provinces sharing the assimilated religion).

That's the Assimilate mechanic for heathens. For heretics it takes place at a provincial level.

You would go to the province that has a heretic religion, and instead of converting, you would "assimilate" it. For the cost of -X diplomacy points, -X admin points, and -X formality points and take X month to complete with +0.5% local autonomy each month. Where X = (3)(base tax of the province) - (base tax of the province)(tolerance of the heretic religion). So the more tolerated the heretic religion is, the less it costs to assimilate (at 0 Formality and with Humanism idea Ecumenism the cost will be the base tax of the province). Think of this as administrators and diplomats going to the province and working out what additional concessions and compromises need to be made to fully integrate the heretics into the true faith. At the end of the process the province's religion switches to Shinto.

I think that kind of mechanic would be a lot of fun. You could play it three different ways. You could go the Shrine Shinto route and just always convert other faiths. Get stronger missionary power (which is a hard thing for Shinto to do, and something Shinto needs if they are going to be converting everyone), along with less autonomy and more legitimacy. Or you can go Folk Shinto with 0 formality and basically become unable to convert anyone, but you just assimilate them instead, allowing you to more easily achieve religious unity at the cost of higher local autonomy. Or you could choose an in between route where you assimilate heathens to make them heretics and then convert them to try and earn back the formality points.

Of course, I'm sure the exact numbers will need tweaking to make it balanced, but the mechanic sounds flavorful and fun to me.

And of course you would have missions/events for Japan to assimilate historically important religions such as Confucianism, Mahayana, and Vajrayana. Maybe add one for Catholicism as well.

You could also have generic missions for Shinto religious nations to assimilate or purge qualifying religions. Who else is Shinto besides Japan.. well... maybe make Ryukyu Shinto at 0 (full Folk Shinto)? Plus there are the Daimyo, just in case they don't form Japan.

Which reminds me, some of the Daimyo provinces should be Buddhist (Mahayana specifically), or at least Shinto with Mahayana already assimilated. In fact the Shogun at the start of 144 should have Mahayana assimilated.
 
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Sackett

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Freebie idea for Confucianism:

Move into it's own group (don't include it in with the Buddhists).

Add some flavor to the bonuses. Right now it has the same bonuses as Mahayana.

Confucianism does have a humanist bent (which is what the current tolerance bonuses are getting at), but it also had a concept of loyalty - which included opposing illegitimate authority. Another thing it was known for was producing administrators.

So lets change the bonuses to:

+30% religious unity
x2 the effects of Legitimacy

Religious unity to represent the humanist bent, and the x2 effects of Legitimacy to represent the Loyalty effect - if the ruler is legitimate things are really good, but if they go bad, then they go bad quickly.

Then add the special mechanic "Integrate" because Confucianism is not necessarily at odds with other religions. It can integrate with other religions.

If you own a province with a religion other than Confucianism you can integrate it on your national religion page, say for the cost of 300 admin points?

If you integrate another religion then you are both that religion and Confucianism. You get the bonuses of that other religion, and other countries treat you as if you are that other religion (because you are). You treat other religions as coreligionists or heretics or heathens based on the integrated religion. You continue to also have the benefits of Confucianism.

You can only integrate one other religion. If you have integrated a religion then you can't integrate another.

It's a lot more rough than my Shinto idea, but I think it has the core of a thematic mechanic for Confucianism.
 
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Grand Historian

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Okay, so this post has drawn me out of lurkerdom, since Japan is one of my nations of interest.

I would agree that the current Shogun government is rather bland. I like the new system you are proposing but I do want to suggest that the person who holds the Shogunate still get +4 Diplomatic relations. For one thing, under your own system the winner of a Shogunate war would end up with multiple vassals, which could cripple the winner diplomatically. Especially with the increase in provinces and Daimyo. (And if you really want to help out, also grant a +1 Diplomat the way the HRE does).

Furthermore, there is the fun little tactic of staying a Shogunate the whole game, and getting a bunch of vassals (get the right ideas and you can get up to 12 diplomatic relations). Not a competitive way of playing, but fun in it's own right. Adding the + Diplomatic relations would preserve that option.

The point of the system is that, by the end of the Kessen, you'll have completely eclipsed the other Daimyo, annexed many of them in the peace talks, and won't be over the diplomatic limit by too much. Not to mention that +4 diplomatic relations would make the Shogunate controller completely OP.

Long post.

The underlying problem with everything that you're proposing about Shintoism, really, is that you are looking at Eastern Religions like Western Religions. Christianity, the Abrahamic Religions, and Zoroastrianism are not syncretic. So yes; saying Norse is a heresy of Christianity would be completely ridiculous. But most Eastern Religions are syncretic; and Shintoism is a very syncretic religion. It is a high-animism, yes, but so is Norse, Hinduism, and all the Native American religions, but unlike them it incorporates elements of Mahayana Buddhism. Mayahana Buddhism, on the other hand, does not have to incorporate elements of Shintoism. Shintoism represents that; the Japanese blend of Animism and Buddhism, and does not need to be changed or removed as a result since it represents itself perfectly. If there were to be Mahayana Buddhists in Japan, it would have to be the hardline ones; the Ikko, which would only appear in the history files as rebels, or the Suzuki.
 
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Sackett

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The underlying problem with everything that you're proposing about Shintoism, really, is that you are looking at Eastern Religions like Western Religions. Christianity, the Abrahamic Religions, and Zoroastrianism are not syncretic. So yes; saying Norse is a heresy of Christianity would be completely ridiculous. But most Eastern Religions are syncretic; and Shintoism is a very syncretic religion. It is a high-animism, yes, but so is Norse, Hinduism, and all the Native American religions, but unlike them it incorporates elements of Mahayana Buddhism. Mayahana Buddhism, on the other hand, does not have to incorporate elements of Shintoism. Shintoism represents that; the Japanese blend of Animism and Buddhism, and does not need to be changed or removed as a result since it represents itself perfectly. If there were to be Mahayana Buddhists in Japan, it would have to be the hardline ones; the Ikko, which would only appear in the history files as rebels, or the Suzuki.
Which is what my whole assimilate mechanic was trying to represent. Shinto can make Mahayana a heretic religion for Shinto but Mahayana Buddhists would still see Shinto as heathen. Which is more realistic.

Or did you just dismiss my post as a "rant" and not bother to read it?
 
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The point of the system is that, by the end of the Kessen, you'll have completely eclipsed the other Daimyo, annexed many of them in the peace talks, and won't be over the diplomatic limit by too much. Not to mention that +4 diplomatic relations would make the Shogunate controller completely OP.

First, I think it unwise to assume that peace plans will turn out the way you think they should be made. The game should be flexible enough to support different options.

Second, how would it make the Shogunate overpowered to have it keep the same bonus that it currently has? If it is not overpowered now (and I don't see a lot of Japans being played as Shogunates) then why would it suddenly become overpowered now?
 
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Grand Historian

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Which is what my whole assimilate mechanic was trying to represent. Shinto can make Mahayana a heretic religion for Shinto but Mahayana Buddhists would still see Shinto as heathen. Which is more realistic.

Or did you just dismiss my post as a "rant" and not bother to read it?

No, but I'm not certain if you realize the EU4 is not exactly built to handle something like that, and given that that mechanic will be something made specifically for Japan, because that's pretty much the only example I can see it being used for, essentially forcing a complete overhaul of religion, a universal mechanic, for one specific area of the world, the likelyhood of it being implemented is nil. Not to mention the potential bugs.

Look, I understand what you're getting at, but the problem is that Shinto, inherently, already represents what you're trying to make a mechanic for, and even then, the validity of hardline Mahayana devotees viewing Shintos as heathens (and vice-versa) is very questionable. And if Shintoism would be moved to the Pagan group, then that would give Carte Blanche to do the same to Confucian (or give it a group of it's own), as, while it is philosophy (though adhered to like a religion, and was also the state philosophy of China), it too also incorporates various local folklores, elements of Buddhism, ancestor worship, and an Imperial Cult, much like Shinto.

That said, I would like to see an overhaul to tolerance in general, but I don't think that's necessarily the way to go about it, especially only doing it just as a mechanic for one religion. I still stand by my point that Shinto represents itself fine, and it would save so much time, confusion, bugs and effort if it continues to.

First, I think it unwise to assume that peace plans will turn out the way you think they should be made. The game should be flexible enough to support different options.

Second, how would it make the Shogunate overpowered to have it keep the same bonus that it currently has? If it is not overpowered now (and I don't see a lot of Japans being played as Shogunates) then why would it suddenly become overpowered now?

Fair enough, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't have to juggle the remaining clans either. There are plenty of instances in history in general of new Governments being challenged/opposed/hindered by remnants of the previous.

It would be overpowered because the Shogunate would no longer be a government; if +4 Dip Relations were to be a facet of being the Shogunate controller, than that would mean that you could have four more potential allies/vassals, and the final push to unification would be so much easier. And most people wouldn't want the Shogunate to stay as a government if it would be a mechanic (heck, they don't even want it now): if your going to have +4 Dip Relations invested into a government type that's unswitchable, then that's the only bonus you're going to get and you'll be stuck with it. If you want to play a heavily vassal-focused game, then you should have to go fully diplomatic to manage it, because otherwise you could just let the +4 Dip Relations do almost all the talking for you and focus almost all your ideas on military/admin.
 
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Sackett

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No, but I'm not certain if you realize the EU4 is not exactly built to handle something like that, and given that that mechanic will be something made specifically for Japan, because that's pretty much the only example I can see it being used for, essentially forcing a complete overhaul of religion, a universal mechanic, for one specific area of the world, the likelyhood of it being implemented is nil. Not to mention the potential bugs.

That said, I would like to see an overhaul to tolerance in general, but I don't think that's necessarily the way to go about it, especially only doing it just as a mechanic for one religion. I still stand by my point that Shinto represents itself fine, and it would save so much time, confusion, bugs and effort if it continues to.

I thought you yourself wanted the Shinto religion to be modified?

Since Shinto is particularly syncretic it makes sense that they would have their own mechanic to represent that, as compared to other religions which are not as much. (Well, Confucianism, but that's why I propose a mechanic for that one as well).

I'm not sure of the coding modifications that would be required to implement such a thing, but I doubt you are either. So neither one of us is qualified to say how difficult it would be.

Depending on how the current system is implemented it might not be that hard at all. If the current system tags certain religions as "heretic" or "heathen" for each nation then you just need to switch the tags...

Although it's possible that the heretic/heathen mechanic is more deeply embedded.

Even if that is the case, a scale between Shrine Shinto and Folk Shinto is certainly possible, as other religions already have similar mechanics. You'd just have to rebalance to compensate for not having the assimilate function - probably with extra tolerance or something for Folk Shinto.

Fair enough, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't have to juggle the remaining clans either. There are plenty of instances in history in general of new Governments being challenged/opposed/hindered by remnants of the previous.

It would be overpowered because the Shogunate would no longer be a government; if +4 Dip Relations were to be a facet of being the Shogunate controller, than that would mean that you could have four more potential allies/vassals, and the final push to unification would be so much easier. And most people wouldn't want the Shogunate to stay as a government if it would be a mechanic (heck, they don't even want it now): if your going to have +4 Dip Relations invested into a government type that's unswitchable, then that's the only bonus you're going to get and you'll be stuck with it. If you want to play a heavily vassal-focused game, then you should have to go fully diplomatic to manage it, because otherwise you could just let the +4 Dip Relations do almost all the talking for you and focus almost all your ideas on military/admin.

Um... my point is to give players more options, not fewer. You yourself admit that most players don't want to stay Shogun even though they get +4 diplomatic relations. This strongly suggests that +4 Diplomatic Relations is not overpowered.

Furthermore there is nothing in my suggestion that would prevent players from switching away from a Shogunate if they want that. It goes like this:

You get the Shogunate. You get +4 Diplomatic Relations, later you manage to win the Kessen. Now all the surviving Daimyo are your vassals. You get a decision option to declare Japan United which would remove the Shogunate mechanism, including the +4 Diplomatic Relations, and allows the formation of a new government with better bonuses than a Daimyo. Or alternatively you don't take the decision and can stay a Shogunate/Daimyo - just like now.

But it's better, because there is a more interesting mechanic in early Japan and you can even play as a Daimyo who never controls the Shogunate and still unites Japan, or you can seize the Shogunate from other Daimyo. You can use military power on the other Daimyo, or diplomacy. It's a much more exciting game. I appreciate your proposal to add that. It just feels to me like you are irrationally afraid that if any remnant of the current system (ie the +4 diplomatic Relations) survives that it will ruin your new idea. I just don't see how that is the case.

The problem with the current system isn't that the Shogun has +4 Diplomatic Relations, it's that the other Daimyo can't take the Shogunate away from him. They have to just conquer all of Japan first. There is no maneuvering to manipulate the Shogunate system, as there ought to be.

If you are concerned about balance inside the Daimyo/Shogun system then that's a different question, but since that system has not yet been built or balanced it seems premature to claim that +4 Diplomatic Relations is overpowered. After all, even with +4 Diplomatic Relations, you still need to get those relationships established, which with proper AI incentives should be challenging.
 
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I thought you yourself wanted the Shinto religion to be modified?

I did. I'm just content with letting Shinto represent itself without having to overhaul the entire tolerance system just to accommodate it (and the devs certainly would be too).

Since Shinto is particularly syncretic it makes sense that they would have their own mechanic to represent that, as compared to other religions which are not as much. (Well, Confucianism, but that's why I propose a mechanic for that one as well).

I'm not sure of the coding modifications that would be required to implement such a thing, but I doubt you are either. So neither one of us is qualified to say how difficult it would be.

Depending on how the current system is implemented it might not be that hard at all. If the current system tags certain religions as "heretic" or "heathen" for each nation then you just need to switch the tags...

Although it's possible that the heretic/heathen mechanic is more deeply embedded.

Even if that is the case, a scale between Shrine Shinto and Folk Shinto is certainly possible, as other religions already have similar mechanics. You'd just have to rebalance to compensate for not having the assimilate function - probably with extra tolerance or something for Folk Shinto.

I actually am quite certain the system is indeed that entrenched; your proposal for a mechanic for it would require a complete overhaul of all religion (how tolerance and religious groups are handled). And, even then, to what extent would Shinto incorporate other religions? If it could just do that to every faith it encountered, then there'd be reason to convert, or go the other way and enact Sakoku. And who is a heretic or heathen is not decided by nation but by religious group (assuming I'm understanding your comment about tags correctly).

Um... my point is to give players more options, not fewer. You yourself admit that most players don't want to stay Shogun even though they get +4 diplomatic relations. This strongly suggests that +4 Diplomatic Relations is not overpowered.

Furthermore there is nothing in my suggestion that would prevent players from switching away from a Shogunate if they want that. It goes like this:

You get the Shogunate. You get +4 Diplomatic Relations, later you manage to win the Kessen. Now all the surviving Daimyo are your vassals. You get a decision option to declare Japan United which would remove the Shogunate mechanism, including the +4 Diplomatic Relations, and allows the formation of a new government with better bonuses than a Daimyo. Or alternatively you don't take the decision and can stay a Shogunate/Daimyo - just like now.

But it's better, because there is a more interesting mechanic in early Japan and you can even play as a Daimyo who never controls the Shogunate and still unites Japan, or you can seize the Shogunate from other Daimyo. You can use military power on the other Daimyo, or diplomacy. It's a much more exciting game. I appreciate your proposal to add that. It just feels to me like you are irrationally afraid that if any remnant of the current system (ie the +4 diplomatic Relations) survives that it will ruin your new idea. I just don't see how that is the case.

I'm 'irrationally' afraid that being able to have +4 new allies as the Shogunate controller would make the Kessen too easy to win since you would have to deal with less opponents, not to mention the ridiculous amount of allies you could have (and vassals, but having up to twelve vassals would either mean they would have to be very small, you would have to be enormous, or they would end up revolting every chance they got). It's a matter of balance; if it were +2 or +1 I'd be fine with it, but four, along with any other bonus' that might be provided by being the Shogunate Controller, would be OP, both pre and post-Kessen. I do agree it would make things more interesting, I just think +4 would be overkill.

The problem with the current system isn't that the Shogun has +4 Diplomatic Relations, it's that the other Daimyo can't take the Shogunate away from him. They have to just conquer all of Japan first. There is no maneuvering to manipulate the Shogunate system, as there ought to be.

If you are concerned about balance inside the Daimyo/Shogun system then that's a different question, but since that system has not yet been built or balanced it seems premature to claim that +4 Diplomatic Relations is overpowered. After all, even with +4 Diplomatic Relations, you still need to get those relationships established, which with proper AI incentives should be challenging.

Agreed, but no one is going to bother listening to my proposal if I don't bother trying to think whether or not it would be balance. I would prefer to just air on the side of caution with this. That said, I'm not really here to argue, and I did enjoy this conversation since it's given me the opportunity to think over a few points and refine them.
 
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Yes this region does need a lot of improvement, I like how much detail you put into this so I sure hope this catches the eye of a developer *hint hint* ;]
 
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Homusubi

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I'm still with Grand Historian on this one after reading the long discussion above. It is evident that Sackett doesn't know much about Japanese history. For a start, "State Shinto" didn't exist until well after 1821. Also, with Shintoism, just because it's animist doesn't mean that it is closer to, say, Norse than to Confucian or Mahayana. Prince Shotoku reconciled Shinto, Confucianism, and Buddhism in about 600 CE. The Imjin War - the only war in the EUIV timeframe involving Japan which was not fought entirely within the archipelago - had no religious element. (Well, it had, but it was inside the Japanese forces: Kirishitan daimyo vs. non-Kirishitan daimyo, as opposed to Shinto vs. Confucians).

So yes, Shinto needs flavour, but more along the lines of GH's system than Sackett's. The problem with that entire region, religion-wise, is that the concepts of "heretic" and "heathen" break down for anything east of Burma. Any diplomacy between Shintoists, Confucians, and Buddhists would probably not feature religious elements. Therefore, it makes sense to remove the "[Neighbouring] Heretic Religion" penalty when one country is Eastern and the other is either Eastern or Buddhist.
 
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Awesomely detailed and thought out, especially the changes to the Shogunate mechanic you proposed, i'd love to see all the features you proposed in game.
As for the new provinces/nations, in addition to what you proposed, i'd also like to see a few more changes:
-Split Hitachi in 2 part and give the upper one to Satake. From what i know, they were a pretty major player through the most of the Sengoy Jidai period.
-Split the upper part of Mutsu and give it to Nanbu, for the same reasons as the previous one.
-Also, although too small, would be really nice to split off all the minor islands: Tanegashima, Tsushima, Sado and Goto (But Oki, it is small even when compared to other small on the EU4 map :D)
 
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Awesomely detailed and thought out, especially the changes to the Shogunate mechanic you proposed, i'd love to see all the features you proposed in game.
As for the new provinces/nations, in addition to what you proposed, i'd also like to see a few more changes:
-Split Hitachi in 2 part and give the upper one to Satake. From what i know, they were a pretty major player through the most of the Sengoy Jidai period.
-Split the upper part of Mutsu and give it to Nanbu, for the same reasons as the previous one.
-Also, although too small, would be really nice to split off all the minor islands: Tanegashima, Tsushima, Sado and Goto (But Oki, it is small even when compared to other small on the EU4 map :D)

GH is already planning on splitting Mutsu. Given that Date started in Aizu in 1444 (or Ashina if you prefer: Aizu was pretty fractured during the Sengoku Jidai), it makes sense to give the rest of Mutsu to Nambu. Also, Satake is already mentioned.