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Sunforged General

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Ever since Deepblue beat Kasparov, computers have easily been able to defeat even the greatest chess players in the world. So why is it in this game or any strategy game online, computer AI is terrible vs human players? I would argue HOI IV is easier than chess in terms of long term strategy. So why does the AI/computer seem so weak in the game?
 
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Meglok

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Ever since Deepblue beat Kasparov, computers have easily been able to defeat even the greatest chess players in the world. So why is it in this game or any strategy game online, computer AI is terrible vs human players? I would argue HOI IV is easier than chess in terms of long term strategy. So why does the AI/computer seem so weak in the game?

Comparing the limited number of options in a chess game of two opponents with the exact same features to the variables of programming multiple opponents with dynamic features on a dynamic playing field doesn't work. The number of programming variables in HOI4 dwarf the number in chess exponentially.
 
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bitmode

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The amount of development invested into chess AI is gigantic, especially when compared to hoi4. Chess has been around far longer, is much more popular and has been used as a lighthouse project to demonstrate AI capabilities in non-gaming fields.

The rules of hoi4 are frequently changing, which makes it harder to maintain and evaluate a highly competent AI. Training times are limited to a few months (which sounds like a lot but the game runs very slowly and not as much compute power is available), results between patches are difficult to compare.

Compared to chess, the design of hoi4 is very weak and it falls apart when applying a strong intelligence to it. This can already be seen in high-level multiplayer (house rules, mods, forbidden countries) and would be multiplied for AI.

Being real-time and involving at least a dozen instead of only two players, the computation budget is very limited. On speed 4 a day passes in a couple of seconds. The AI calculations only get a fraction of that time, which is then again split among many countries. And as Meglok mentioned, the output space at any given point in time is much larger.

As hoi4 is sort of a simulation, a lot of randomness and limited knowledge is involved. This precludes many methods of strict analysis that require perfect knowledge of current and future outcomes. In this respect, it is more comparable to Starcraft AI projects than chess.

Finally, the hoi4 AI "interface" is virtually closed, so no one can work on it beside a few Paradox developers.
 
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Zauberelefant

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As a layman, I understand that chess basically requires raw computing power first, because there are few unknowns in chess.
Hoi4 however has both long and short term strategy with loads of unknown factors.
 
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kettyo

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The sum of all potential conditions in HOI4 is many orders of magnitude more than in Chess so that developing AI for it is accordingly more difficult.
 
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DaleDVM

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Chess is a tactical game with limited moves. It is a complicated tactical game, which is why it took a while to program a great AI for it.

Strategic games like HOI4 are literally infinitely more complex. That said, I would be happier with AI that just defended its major ports and didn't abandon entire fronts.
 
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andersonm

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Chess is a very simple game mechanically there are six unique pieces: pawn, bishop, knight, rook, queen, king. The board has only 64 possible positions. There are two players. It takes about 5 minutes to explain to someone how to play the game.

With enough processing power you can essentially brute force the game. The computer can look at the chain of outcomes that would occur based on a particular move using pruning techniques to cut off pathways that are obviously bad. Consider that on opening the game there are only ten possible moves, eight pawns and two knights. As it's designers would tell you Deep Blue was really just a very efficient search engine and not AI.

It's the same basic method used to build a perfect tic tac toe game playing "AI" that almost in a low level CS class will end up doing. That game is so simple though a computer can map out all possibilities and ensure it does not lose in a under a second.

HOI4 does not have a set number of pieces (divisions, planes, ships)... in fact you have chose your technologies, then choose variants... then choose what to actually build. The map provides ten of thousands of places to move. There are probably a hundred AI nations going at any time vs 1 human meaning the computer must divide its attention massively. And there are innumerable other features as well beyond just moving pieces around. Think about actually long it takes explaining to someone how to play the game. Not even well, but to actually utilize all the features, a few hours at an absolute minimum.

It is impossible to brute force this game it is too complicated. So what to do?

Well, generally games simplify things by a combination of scripting (e.g. standard design templates, tech choices, focus trees) and strength evaluation. The strength evaluation is actually one of the prime reasons for the AI shuffle, it tries to stop you from getting over strength in a given point on a front line and preventing breakthroughs. So it has a very narrow focus and does not look ahead to realize that actually moving units will worsen its overall position.

There is hope though my friends, probably not for HOI4 but for gaming in general. Deep Learning focuses on the outcome rather than the developers telling it specifically how to play. In this system, the developer will carefully enumerate all the functionality the computer has at it's fingertips and then let it loose against itself or human players. It will lose over and over, thousands of times at the beginning because it literally has no idea what to do but will eventually learn its own strategy that will allow it to start winning. For example, it would likely figure out you can just win as Germany if you paratroop onto London at the beginning of the game.

Still though, that's a ways off, they have systems like that now that can crush humans at Chess but a game like HOI4 would require an insane amount of setup work on the developers part to do. The game would need to be designed with an AI like this in mind from the start. To be more successful it should be trained on a bare bones version first and then implement additional features.
 
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blue_yonder

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It's not actually a 'strange' question as per the title, but does the rounds of all strategy games from time to time. Chess has a clear objective, an end result, called checkmate, and precisely codified means to get to this goal. All games with these attributes will eventually be 'solved', and some already have. HOI4 has neither an equivalent of checkmate nor unchanging routes towards it. Therefore a quantum computer the size of the universe couldn't 'solve' it, because success is whatever the player defines it to be, so there is nothing to be solved.
 
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andersonm

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For those interested, chess has 20 opening moves, 2 each per knight and 2 each for each pawn.
Still laughable compared to hoi4.

Yep, you're right, I botched the opening move number.
 
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