A simple way to fix absurd blobbing and make large empires more challenging

[Shinkuro Yukinari]

Reintroduce Sliders!

Instead of collecting and dumping points, we can perhaps invest points into respective techs and Stability over time! No more nonsensical dumping of Admin when you get a Civil War, now you take it like a man, because you got into that mess yourself!

If you go centralised, serfdom and innovative, prepare for pissed off nationalists! If not, you will have inferior tech and a less efficient empire. Add in autonomy too!

Humanist can add a larger amount of "points" for you to distribute, plus Narrowminded/Innovative can introduce a minimum and maximum tolerance without penalties

Anyone who has actively played the older EU games knows that this is more realistic than the current system that has tons of ways to exploit and is overall less dynamic and enjoyable, also challenging.

As for ideas, you can set a portion of the points to be accumulated in a stockpile for other needs, like coring, generals, ideas etc.

 

[Brynjar]

That doesn't really sound like a simple way to fix a something which is only a problem to some players. Your fix would require a complete overhaul of the game, and I doubt that will be considered until they start working on EU5.

 

[Shinkuro Yukinari]

Actually, IIRC, the sliders are still in the game's code for the modders to tinker with

 

[bly08]

I don't understand what "absurd blobbing" is or why it needs to be fixed. If it's to encourage tall play then you can buff one without nerfing the other. Unless you're saying that people who pull off OPM WCs should have a harder time doing so because... historical reasons?

 

[Shinkuro Yukinari]

I don't understand what "absurd blobbing" is or why it needs to be fixed. If it's to encourage tall play then you can buff one without nerfing the other. Unless you're saying that people who pull off OPM WCs should have a harder time doing so because... historical reasons?

Late game especially, blobbing becomes too easy thanks to free CBs, Admin Efficiency and the fact that some game mechanics can be exploited to ensure stability in the realm(And Humanist/Religious ideas are too good to pass). Think reasonably, do you really expect Austrian Nationalists to rest easy whilst they are being strictly ruled by a former island chain south of Japan? Not to mention that realms back then didn't have instant communication like today

 

[bly08]

What is exploitative about getting Humanist ideas? Rebels are indeed a mechanic in the game and if someone's conquered Austria as Japan they can expect to deal with separatists. Are you saying that Humanist should be nerfed and rebels should spawn more often?

 

[Shinkuro Yukinari]

What is exploitative about getting Humanist ideas? Rebels are indeed a mechanic in the game and if someone's conquered Austria as Japan they can expect to deal with separatists. Are you saying that Humanist should be nerfed and rebels should spawn more often?

Humanist ideas aren't an exploit, they are just too strong. And yes, rebels should be more harmful. Imagine if you conquered the entirety of China in EU4 with Vicky 2-style rebel system. You will have to deal with tons of rebels for decades, as you should. That system was somewhat annoying in Vicky 2, but more realistic than what we have in EU4. Also the magical Raise Autonomy button and suppression of rebels via military points. I love playing EU4, but some of these mechanics almost feel like cheats and can ruin the immersion somewhat

 

[Brynjar]

You are free to not pick humanist ideas (I usually avoid them).

 

[Siu-King**]

Late game especially, blobbing becomes too easy thanks to free CBs, Admin Efficiency and the fact that some game mechanics can be exploited to ensure stability in the realm(And Humanist/Religious ideas are too good to pass).

So?


Hey, lets nerf everything other people are using because I don't like how they like to play

 

[bly08]

Humanist ideas aren't an exploit, they are just too strong. And yes, rebels should be more harmful. Imagine if you conquered the entirety of China in EU4 with Vicky 2-style rebel system. You will have to deal with tons of rebels for decades, as you should. That system was somewhat annoying in Vicky 2, but more realistic than what we have in EU4. Also the magical Raise Autonomy button and suppression of rebels via military points. I love playing EU4, but some of these mechanics almost feel like cheats and can ruin the immersion somewhat

I've never played Vic2 but you do still have to deal with tons of rebels for decades in EU4. Humanist makes things easier but doesn't get rid of rebels completely. If you find blobbing too easy there are harder difficulties, I don't think the game should be changed for everyone else.

 

[Shinkuro Yukinari]

So?
Hey, lets nerf everything other people are using because I don't like how they like to play

It is not that I do not like them, it is more about the mechanics being too good, simply. It both kills variety whether or not you are expanding a lot or doing small acquisitions here and there, and it also is unrealistic how you can get humanist and often not worry about rebels unless you really overextend, especially if you raise autonomy, which doesn't make sense in reality

I've never played Vic2 but you do still have to deal with tons of rebels for decades in EU4. Humanist makes things easier but doesn't get rid of rebels completely. If you find blobbing too easy there are harder difficulties, I don't think the game should be changed for everyone else.

Harder difficulties add a lot of arbitrary measures to make the game harder. They don't fix a lot of the issues, however

 

[Siu-King**]

It is not that I do not like them, it is more about the mechanics being too good, simply. It both kills variety...

and who forces you to take that idea group? you can try naval aristocrat innovative expansion and all those unused one and play your game.

 

[Shinkuro Yukinari]

and who forces you to take that idea group? you can try naval aristocrat innovative expansion and all those unused one and play your game.

Technically I can, if I want to see my massive multi-ethnic empire burst in flames

 

[Siu-King**]

Technically I can, if I want to see my massive multi-ethnic empire burst in flames

convert to Muslim/Christian, problem solved

 

[Vulkandrache]

Think reasonably, do you really expect "whichever" Nationalists

If we start arguing that way we run into really fun discussions. And i mean that in no way ironic.

If the game throws, say, nationalist rebels at me in large amounts as a balancing tool then it should also give me ways, means and tools to deal with that.
Including things like the ability to turn those provinces into colonisable empty land.

rest easy whilst they are being strictly ruled

The game has no representation as to how the nation in being governed.
There is nothing preventing me from imagening that im doing a great job.
The economy is booming, manpower reserves are high, WE is non-existent, trade is florishing. Whose saying that the new rule isnt much better for the people than the old one was?
The idea of a fixed country people want to belong to because they happen to fall out of their mother in that one spot is disgusting to me in our modern times and was a fleeting idea back then.
Your average peasent didnt have a reason to care about the color of the border or the name of the ruling house, they had other things to worry about, like the next harvest or the firewood for the winter. Things that threatend their life right now, not at some point in the distant future.

Humanist ideas aren't an exploit, they are just too strong

1. Just a few days ago we had a thread about this.

2. Humanist ideas are no stronger than other ideagroups, infact its very much a One-trick-pony which does next to nothing if you are not expanding quickly enough.

You will have to deal with tons of rebels for decades, as you should

3. Rebels in this game are WAY over the top compared to your typical war.
They magicaly get your tech even if they are pitiful pesky peasent. They are lead by well trained Generals. They dont take proper attrition so you cant even wait them out.
Pretenders are especialy fun with their magical 25% moral bonus. The "war of the roses" in England is so amazing it makes me want to delete that country.
Seperatist rebels spawned from provinces are larger than the army you had to fight to conquer them, to the point were every woman, child and old person must have taken up arms along with the rest of the adult males.

4. There are no easy and convenient ways to deal with random rebels popping up at the ass end of nowhere.
Having to run an entire army across half a continent is f'ed up but the game donest have local militia or quickly recruitable free units which only last 4 weeks or ways to negotiate with the rebels
because:

5.

magical Raise Autonomy button and suppression of rebels via military points. I love playing EU4, but some of these mechanics almost feel like cheats and can ruin the immersion somewhat

those things are abstracted in milpoints and local autonomy.
If those are enough to ruin your immersion you need more imagination.
The entire game is filled with abstractions, mainly through the omnipresent monarch points.

 

[Siu-King**]

3. Rebels in this game are WAY over the top compared to your typical war.
They magicaly get your tech even if they are pitiful pesky peasent. They are lead by well trained Generals. They dont take proper attrition so you cant even wait them out.
Pretenders are especialy fun with their magical 25% moral bonus. The "war of the roses" in England is so amazing it makes me want to delete that country.
Seperatist rebels spawned from provinces are larger than the army you had to fight to conquer them, to the point were every woman, child and old person must have taken up arms along with the rest of the adult males.

Damn I almost forgot this part.

>Play Prussia
>Rebel got 135% discipline

 

[darth254]

I wouldn't mind making blobbing more difficult. whether it be militarily by addressing merc spam and their ability to allow one to continue warfare just about forever, or stability/corruption issues that could creep up the bigger you get which include rebels. It's just so easy to become stable in this game after the initial rebel waves.

and I do get kind of agitated seeing countries picking Quality and Quantity, or Offensive and Defensive, or Religious and Humanist. Aristocratic vs. Plutocratic is unique in that they are quasi-exclusive. but when I made that topic about having idea sets exclusive from each other, I think I got basically told what amounted to being to play EU3 for the sliders.

 

[bbqftw]

I should point out that the fastest claimed one tag doesn't pick religious or humanist ideas. But it is disbelieved because no one thinks anyone would go to that absolute hell of rebel stomping..

When you've gone past a certain point rebels are just a tax on your mental exhaustion.

Just because you would rather not play on VH and instead make everyone's experience more miserable...

 

[Vulkandrache]

issues that could creep up the bigger you get

We can do that.
Do i also get an increasing amount of missionaries to go along with the size of my country?
Im thinking a few hundred once you hit 10k development is a reasonable number.

 

[Shinkuro Yukinari]

convert to Muslim/Christian, problem solved

Ignoring the fact that people of the former main religion would be pissed beyond belief, there lies another problem, conversions are unrealistic. This is the type of thing that normally takes at least a generation, or an exceptional case(Reformation, for example). In EU4, unless you are converting a massive city like Rome, Constantinople or Beijing, you will be done within 5 years if you have some sort of bonus, like an advisor or a NI. Now imagine if you had Religious Ideas on top of that.

If the game throws, say, nationalist rebels at me in large amounts as a balancing tool then it should also give me ways, means and tools to deal with that.
Including things like the ability to turn those provinces into colonisable empty land.

There should be indeed ways to deal with them, the problem is in the ways we have ATM being too effective. Have 20k rebels at 90%? Raise autonomy in 3-5 provinces, people all of a sudden are calm. Also, commiting genocide should be an extremely risky endeavor, reputation-wise

The game has no representation as to how the nation in being governed.
There is nothing preventing me from imagening that im doing a great job.
The economy is booming, manpower reserves are high, WE is non-existent, trade is florishing. Whose saying that the new rule isnt much better for the people than the old one was?
The idea of a fixed country people want to belong to because they happen to fall out of their mother in that one spot is disgusting to me in our modern times and was a fleeting idea back then.
Your average peasent didnt have a reason to care about the color of the border or the name of the ruling house, they had other things to worry about, like the next harvest or the firewood for the winter. Things that threatend their life right now, not at some point in the distant future.

National identity was becoming a concept during the EU4 time-span, so having a demagogue spreading such ideas to the masses in the game is not too outlandish. Although overall stability of your realm is often a result of stability often being too easy to keep in the positive

Our ruler died without an heir?
*two clicks later*
No problem!

2. Humanist ideas are no stronger than other ideagroups, infact its very much a One-trick-pony which does next to nothing if you are not expanding quickly enough.

https://eu4.paradoxwikis.com/Idea_groups#Humanist

I'd disagree

3. Rebels in this game are WAY over the top compared to your typical war.
They magicaly get your tech even if they are pitiful pesky peasent. They are lead by well trained Generals. They dont take proper attrition so you cant even wait them out.
Pretenders are especialy fun with their magical 25% moral bonus. The "war of the roses" in England is so amazing it makes me want to delete that country.
Seperatist rebels spawned from provinces are larger than the army you had to fight to conquer them, to the point were every woman, child and old person must have taken up arms along with the rest of the adult males.

This critique depends from example to example. Maybe introduce some variety in rebel stats

4. There are no easy and convenient ways to deal with random rebels popping up at the ass end of nowhere.
Having to run an entire army across half a continent is f'ed up but the game donest have local militia or quickly recruitable free units which only last 4 weeks or ways to negotiate with the rebels

There is raising autonomy, which can, combined with the lower separatism from Humanist, make rebels not as much of a problem. I suppose you can use Mercs as the "Militia", which are much cheaper than normal thanks to Admin ideas that blobbers almost always take(Especially now, with Mercs giving Professionalism)

those things are abstracted in milpoints and local autonomy.
If those are enough to ruin your immersion you need more imagination.
The entire game is filled with abstractions, mainly through the omnipresent monarch points.

I am ok with some things being abstracted to make gameplay overall smoother. There is a problem when the abstraction becomes too much, like the way Admin can be dumped into Stability so quickly and easily