A quick question about Succession

[Avalastrius]

Hello all,

I am playing as Gwynedd and there are two duchy titles. I haven’t created the kingdom of whales yet.

My heir will get one duchy and his brother will get another. When succession happens the main principality splits, as the two duchies also split. Problem is the second duchy becomes independent of Gwynedd now, which forbids me from creating the kingdom, unless of course I go to war with my pressed claim. I don’t want to do that though.

I tried destroying the second duchy title but that didn’t do anything, as it was evidently created automatically by the claimant after succession.

My question is, can I avoid this in any other way than creating the kingdom? My ruler is too old now and there’s no time to do it. I would like after succession to keep everything under Gwynedd, but it doesn’t seem possible unless I disinherit everyone except my heir?

 

[Yourss]

While under partition, which most of the map is for most of the game. You can only hold your realm together by having one top tier title that can possibly exist at a time. So when your territory expands to two duchies, you need a kingdom. When it expands to two kingdoms, you need an empire.

Other options are disinherit, feudal elective on titles, or the old reliable murder scheme.

 

[namewhichisnottakenyet]

You can add an elective law to both duchy titles and try to have the same son elected for both duchies... which is easy to do if you control all counties in those duchies directly.

 

[Avalastrius]

While under partition, which most of the map is for most of the game. You can only hold your realm together by having one top tier title that can possibly exist at a time. So when your territory expands to two duchies, you need a kingdom. When it expands to two kingdoms, you need an empire.

Other options are disinherit, feudal elective on titles, or the old reliable murder scheme.

Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[Avalastrius]

You can add an elective law to both duchy titles and try to have the same son elected for both duchies... which is easy to do if you control all counties in those duchies directly.

I can’t even change partition due to Welsh haven’t discovered a certain upgrade. I’m still before 900.

 

[mustard11]

You're describing a core component of the game, especially at that early a start date. Constant polity fragmentation was a big deal in the middle ages because inheritance was almost always equally divided.

As Christianity--and the centralized authority allegory that came with it--spread throughout Europe, the most powerful nobles slowly became able to manipulate their inheritance laws to more closely follow that centralized authority allegory in the person of the eldest son. As opposed to equally dividing among all the potential sons.

So in the game, as others have said, there are a couple ways to skirt around fragmented inheritance laws before the Christian allegory of centralized authority takes hold in your culture's technological progress (by way of the 'heraldry' and 'primogeniture' innovations, which you probably won't discover for another 100-200 years or so):

1. Disinherit your other sons at a cost to prestige and renown (meaning you won't be able to unlock dynastic legacies as quickly or as often over the whole course of the game)
2. Convince your other sons to become monks (just a piety cost)
3. Unless you're a sadist, you won't be able to plot to murder your own children. But if the inheritance has already happened, you could plot to kill your brothers/uncles to get their demesne back under your direct control.
4. You could alternatively plot fabrication hooks (or discover hooks through the spymaster task) on your other sons (or brothers/uncles if inheritance has already happened), and then use those hooks to either imprison and then revoke, or just directly revoke their titles. (Note this won't work unless the sons/brothers/uncles are your vassals. So if you're a duke, and your brother is also a duke and you fabricate a hook on him, you won't be able to do anything with it.)

 

[namewhichisnottakenyet]

I can’t even change partition due to Welsh haven’t discovered a certain upgrade. I’m still before 900.

Ah, sorry, I should have clarified that elective laws are a bit different from standard succession laws. You have to click on the title you want to turn into an elective one (i.e. one if your duchies) which will open the title screen. Near the bottom, there's a button "Add law". Click that, and you'll get an option to add an elective law to your title. They are not locked behind any technology (but some cultures have special election laws), however you have to pay 1500 prestige for the change.

 

[Avalastrius]

Oh thanks everyone for the suggestions. I’m just one ruler in and I can’t believe the stories I have to tell. This game is just an incredible design achievement for the industry as a whole. And yes, I know there are problems and obvious wrongs. )

 

[mustard11]

I wanted to add that putting elective succession laws on your duchy titles can help a little bit, but the counties will still be divided up by confederate partition.

So say for example your entire realm is 6 counties large, you personally have 5 counties and 2 duchy titles, and 1 count vassal unrelated to you. (Let's pretend both duchies contain 3 de jure counties each.)
And then let's pretend you have 3 sons.
You hoard enough prestige points (3000) to put elective succession on both of your duchy titles.
Voting is a breeze because you already own all the counties in one duchy, and you probably have enough voting power on the other duchy to not care about swaying the unrelated count vassal to vote for your preferred heir.
Then you die. Your preferred heir (son#1) inherits both duchies because they had the votes for both elections.
But here's what happens to your counties.
Son#1 will probably only inherit the capital counties of the two duchies they inherited. So they'll have two duchies and two counties.
Son#2 will probably inherit the other 2 counties of your first duchy.
Son#3 will probably inherit the other county of your second duchy (the unrelated count vassal from the second duchy keeping his county of course).

So Son#1 is only marginally more powerful than Son#2 because they both own 2 counties each. The only advantages the duchy titles give Son#1 over Son#2 is slightly-to-negligible amounts of more gold and levies due to having Son#3 and the unrelated count as vassals. But at least Son#2 is your vassal as well, and not a neighboring independent duke.

 

[Avalastrius]

I wanted to add that putting elective succession laws on your duchy titles can help a little bit, but the counties will still be divided up by confederate partition.

So say for example your entire realm is 6 counties large, you personally have 5 counties and 2 duchy titles, and 1 count vassal unrelated to you. (Let's pretend both duchies contain 3 de jure counties each.)
And then let's pretend you have 3 sons.
You hoard enough prestige points (3000) to put elective succession on both of your duchy titles.
Voting is a breeze because you already own all the counties in one duchy, and you probably have enough voting power on the other duchy to not care about swaying the unrelated count vassal to vote for your preferred heir.
Then you die. Your preferred heir (son#1) inherits both duchies because they had the votes for both elections.
But here's what happens to your counties.
Son#1 will probably only inherit the capital counties of the two duchies they inherited. So they'll have two duchies and two counties.
Son#2 will probably inherit the other 2 counties of your first duchy.
Son#3 will probably inherit the other county of your second duchy (the unrelated count vassal from the second duchy keeping his county of course).

So Son#1 is only marginally more powerful than Son#2 because they both own 2 counties each. The only advantages the duchy titles give Son#1 over Son#2 is slightly-to-negligible amounts of more gold and levies due to having Son#3 and the unrelated count as vassals. But at least Son#2 is your vassal as well, and not a neighboring independent duke.

That’s very informative, thanks.

A small issue is that it’s not very easy to get 3000 prestige in your first ruler when you start in 867, unless you really shape everything around it I guess (I’m talking of course for smaller countries which are not kingdoms yet).

What threw me off was that despite destroying the duchy title, it was still there to be created by the AI when succession happened. In my mind, if I destroyed it, then my heirs would simply get their lordships and ONLY my player heir would have the ability to create it, as his father. It turns out that all AVAILABLE titles, created or not, get transferred via succession. So, essentially, you either need to go wild with disinherit etc or use elective law, which still takes some out of the box tinkering.

Also, isn’t the ability to create a kingdom title considered an advantage? Because my son with the two duchies will have that ability to do it, as opposed to the one who only has counties?

Another thing I realized -and correct me if I’m wrong- is that when two counties are allied and one of them becomes part of a duchy after succession, the alliance still carries over and the the Lord and the Duke are allied. At least that’s what I thought happened between two of my vassals. Is this correct?

 

[Yourss]

That’s very informative, thanks.

A small issue is that it’s not very easy to get 3000 prestige in your first ruler when you start in 867, unless you really shape everything around it I guess (I’m talking of course for smaller countries which are not kingdoms yet).

What threw me off was that despite destroying the duchy title, it was still there to be created by the AI when succession happened. In my mind, if I destroyed it, then my heirs would simply get their lordships and ONLY my player heir would have the ability to create it, as his father. It turns out that all AVAILABLE titles, created or not, get transferred via succession. So, essentially, you either need to go wild with disinherit etc or use elective law, which still takes some out of the box tinkering.

Also, isn’t the ability to create a kingdom title considered an advantage? Because my son with the two duchies will have that ability to do it, as opposed to the one who only has counties?

Another thing I realized -and correct me if I’m wrong- is that when two counties are allied and one of them becomes part of a duchy after succession, the alliance still carries over and the the Lord and the Duke are allied. At least that’s what I thought happened between two of my vassals. Is this correct?

At that era, you only have access to Confederate Partition. Which will create titles to give out, even if they don't exist. There are entire guides dedicated to how partition will play out. You start with Confederate Partition, then move to Partition, finally High Partition.

This has been one of the more...controversial design decisions of CK3. On one hand, it does create a sink for player resources, and under certain circumstances (rapid ruler deaths) create substantial game challenges. However, the scripted empires handle the system even worse. So within a generation or two, most feudal rulers have no power base remaining.

As you discovering, it's also a challenge for new players.

 

[mustard11]

A small issue is that it’s not very easy to get 3000 prestige in your first ruler when you start in 867, unless you really shape everything around it I guess (I’m talking of course for smaller countries which are not kingdoms yet).

Yep, and therein lies the core game mechanic: figuring out how to glue everything back together over the first 100-200 years of the game. Because you're right, it's not always going to be possible--especially when starting small--to build up the prerequisite materials (prestige, piety--some folks call this stuff 'mana') to skirt the inheritance laws within your first ruler's lifetime, and maybe not even in your first 2-3 rulers' lifetimes.

What threw me off was that despite destroying the duchy title, it was still there to be created by the AI when succession happened. In my mind, if I destroyed it, then my heirs would simply get their lordships and ONLY my player heir would have the ability to create it, as his father. It turns out that all AVAILABLE titles, created or not, get transferred via succession. So, essentially, you either need to go wild with disinherit etc or use elective law, which still takes some out of the box tinkering.

That is the key difference between Confederate Partition and regular non-confederate partition, and the only way you would know that is by comparing their tooltips in the realm/succession section. Especially in a European 867 start date, you'll probably be stuck on confederate partition for a while, which will create higher titles if you have the land for them. Even if you only have 1 son and no other heirs, it will still create extra duchy titles for your son if you have the uncreated duchy's de jure counties in your realm when you die.

Sometime in the 11th century you should be able to research and switch to regular Partition, which will not create titles you haven't already created. Counties will still be distributed among your sons pretty evenly though until you reach High Partition.
And then with High Partition, your primary heir will get most of your counties as well. Only a small handful of counties will be forced to be given to any other sons you have.
And then finally you'll arrive to Primogeniture which gives everything to the firstborn son.

Also, isn’t the ability to create a kingdom title considered an advantage? Because my son with the two duchies will have that ability to do it, as opposed to the one who only has counties?

Oh most definitely it is. Once you have a kingdom, you can stop caring as much about secondary heirs inheriting a duchy since they'll still be your primary heir's vassal (since your primary heir will be their king). No more intra-family blood feuds between independent duchies!

Another thing I realized -and correct me if I’m wrong- is that when two counties are allied and one of them becomes part of a duchy after succession, the alliance still carries over and the the Lord and the Duke are allied. At least that’s what I thought happened between two of my vassals. Is this correct?

Yep that's fine. Just because a count has a liege doesn't mean they can't continue to conduct their own foreign diplomacy, including alliances.
In fact that's the best way to become independent if you're playing as count with a weak duke liege. Marry your kid to a nearby powerful duke or king's kid, and then call them into your independence war against your liege.

 

[Yourss]

Sometime in the 11th century you should be able to research and switch to regular Partition, which will not create titles you haven't already created. Counties will still be distributed among your sons pretty evenly though until you reach High Partition.
And then with High Partition, your primary heir will get most of your counties as well. Only a small handful of counties will be forced to be given to any other sons you have.
And then finally you'll arrive to Primogeniture which gives everything to the firstborn son.

Probably should include that this is a very large amount of play time, even at max speed. While we don't have access to the actual figures, most 4x/GS games that have released data show that most playthroughs don't make it anywhere near late game.

 

[Avalastrius]

Ok, many thanks for the info.

Two things:

First is for @Yourss : can you elaborate a bit if you have time on the “most feudal rulers have no power base remaining”? What does that mean?

Second is for @mustard11 : Now it makes sense, because I really didn’t remember creating the duchy title in the first place. I was under the impression that the game created lower titles when needed, but not duchy titles, and certainly I never thought that it would create them even if there were no heirs, just based on the amount of land available. Thanks.

 

[mustard11]

Right, you almost had it correct: it doesn't create county titles since those are permanent and the lowest playable title in the first place. It only creates higher titles. So if you have a huge kingdom and are still on confederate partition, it's possible a second kingdom will be created out of thin air if you have a lot of its de jure land. It's the same concept as was previously explained, just raised a tier from duchies to kingdoms.

As for the power base comment, I believe they're speaking to how the AI plays the game. The AI doesn't have the foresight or intelligence to try to skirt their confederate partition inheritance in the early game, so their realms tend to stay more fractured as the game goes on compared to the human player's realm. I have over 1000 hrs in CK3 (probably something like 1500 hrs in CK2 as well) and I've never had a problem with the game being too 'easy' so it's not something I worry about. I tend to be more of a role-playing style of player anyway.

 

[DukeLeto42]

As you're Welsh, you can implement Tanistry succession on both duchies. Your counties will be divvied up, but you should be easily able to get enough vassals to vote for one person. Until Primogeniture is an option, it's the succession law that requires the least pruning of the family tree.

 

[Yourss]

First is for @Yourss : can you elaborate a bit if you have time on the “most feudal rulers have no power base remaining”? What does that mean?

How much you encounter this depends on how far you get in each of your campaigns. Human players understand the concept of centralizing their power and investing in the future. As @mustard11 said, if you mostly play for RP, or short games, you won't notice. In longer games the scripted characters get to the point where they can't support their own man at arms, let alone their entire realms levies, on the couple of counties in their demesne. While the player's pile of highly developed and invested counties are giving them a surplus of piles of gold.

 

[mustard11]

As you're Welsh, you can implement Tanistry succession on both duchies. Your counties will be divvied up, but you should be easily able to get enough vassals to vote for one person. Until Primogeniture is an option, it's the succession law that requires the least pruning of the family tree.

Totally forgot about the Brythonic equation. Good point. IIRC Tanistry is kinda like a mix between Seniority and Elective. It is technically an election but AI voters give more candidacy weight to older dynasts, and they can't not vote for your dynasts so it's pretty safe.