A potentially controversial spicy hot take (maybe?) - Republics should drop Great Families.

[EricMN93]

I do not think that the problem of the republics is the families, the real problem is the direct control that the player has. There should be mechanisms that force the player to understand the political machine, for example, cursus honorum, increased importance of the senate, etc.

In the end it represents that in Imperator we play as the government or the spirit of the nation (I still get lost with this). There should be a constant struggle between the government and the Senate for power.

 

[cristofolmc]

I would like factions to ask for jobs directly to the Player to get more seats on the Senate and finally get more power base.

The player now pays attention to family loyalty and power base of heads of families (they accrue all the family holdings). For monarchies that is all fine but for Republics it leaves the parties ignored after you have the 60% approval rating.

If parties demanded jobs for their members and struggle for power base, the game could pool their members’ power base as now does for family heads and threaten the player with civil war with ease.

The idea is good, the implementation has to be ironed out to keep families around but give political parties the punch they sorely need.

I don't know if removing great families, which was a featured introduced precisely thinking of Rome, is the best way to portray this. I'd much rather give the senate more power. Deciding who gets the governorship and other offices while we lack a Corsus Honorum. I do like the idea of being the senate the place for the great families to air their grievances and demands, but I dont think removing great families adds anything to the game. Maybe remove the scorn family feature and turn the scorn family into a senate approval modifier from the faction the memebers of the scorn family belong to.

Then again, the senate doesnt seem to have enough power in the game for their demands to matter so you actually have to listen to the families etc. You take a bit of tyranny which is even beneficial and thats it. No biggy. I much rather the EU Rome system where having the senate opposed blocked all together diplomatic actions like war, alliances etc. It made you care about your factions and their approval a lot more.

So yeah, its a tricky one

 

[cristofolmc]

I do not think that the problem of the republics is the families, the real problem is the direct control that the player has. There should be mechanisms that force the player to understand the political machine, for example, cursus honorum, increased importance of the senate, etc.

In the end it represents that in Imperator we play as the government or the spirit of the nation (I still get lost with this). There should be a constant struggle between the government and the Senate for power.

This, and I dont thnk this happens to the full extend that it should. Yes sometimes you get events and annoying decisions you have to make to veto or not to pass laws. But its seldom. It would be cool if the senate had the power to elect all offices, change economic policies, etc. Something that you as the government, would have to wrestle again like in real history so its your policy or the Senate's the one that goes forward. And if the senate wins, you really have to feel handcuffed and change your plans for the time being.

This doesnt happen currently. The veto normally leaves you well beyond 50% approval, because youre always sitting easily without paying any attention at 70-80%. And even the few times when your approval drops below 60%, you take a small tyranny hit that has more benefits than negative effects, so you dont really have to worry about the senate at all really. It still feels like playing as an absolute Tyrant.

 

[Todie]

There should be mechanisms that force the player to understand the political machine

Force? I don't think so.

But help and incentivise - for sure! incentives do exist, but they can be fleshed out and expanded upon with more events and interactions with characters and factions.

 

[Bovrick]

I think Republics of all stripes should lose the great families mechanic, and in its replacement, it should treat the factions as great families. So instead of the Cornelii demanding 4 jobs and getting pissy that they only have 3, it should be the Populares demanding 4 jobs and getting pissy if they only have 3.

For this, I am firmly, firmly in the No camp. Firstly, because I dislike the scorned family mechanic already, hence my proposal/discussion on the subject. Secondly, because this doesn't make it more interesting, it just shifts the mechanic from one blob of characters to another. I'd much rather see both parts, Family and Faction, become more relevant to a Character. Having crosscutting loyalties makes the balancing act more interesting and immersive imo.

 

[Iosue Yu]

I think I'd made similar suggestions. But I was really given my share of respectful red crosses.

Hm...

I think we should be careful not to misread the suggestion. It's to do away the Great Family Mechanics, but not the Great Family keyword. If it's done away, the keyword Great Family will exist somewhere else with another gameplay impact. Please refrain from forgetting about it.

But with the current political parties and their senseless demands, I'd agree with any proposal of any change. Because the current mechanics are just that bad.

 

[Vernichtere]

I would make it otherwise. Let be the offices in republics elected. Amke the elections more interesting and connect them with the pops in the capital.

 

[Limbojack]

Then again, the senate doesnt seem to have enough power in the game for their demands to matter so you actually have to listen to the families etc.

This.

The Senate should be made much more influential when you're playing as a republic. Let the player nominate candidates for government jobs, but it should ultimately be up to the Senate itself to pick governors, admirals, generals, and all the offices. This would make maintaining senatorial approval extremely important, and make republics feel more unique.
This would also make it necessary to add even more senate faction missions like "conquer here", "build X building there", "improve relations with X", or "ally X."

 

[John MacWhat]

I don't really want to see the factions take on the existing great family mechanics. That said, I do think government staffing should play more of a role in faction approval. You should get a tiny ticking amount of approval for all major offices held by faction members. You should also gain/lose 1 or 2 approval for hiring and firing from each faction. It would also make sense for governorships to be affected by this, but perhaps scaled so that only the governorships of wealthy, high pop, integrated culture areas are seen as good jobs, where sending a party member to a backwater may actually be viewed negatively

 

[Battlex]

I don't know if removing great families, which was a featured introduced precisely thinking of Rome, is the best way to portray this. I'd much rather give the senate more power. Deciding who gets the governorship and other offices while we lack a Corsus Honorum. I do like the idea of being the senate the place for the great families to air their grievances and demands, but I dont think removing great families adds anything to the game. Maybe remove the scorn family feature and turn the scorn family into a senate approval modifier from the faction the memebers of the scorn family belong to.

Then again, the senate doesnt seem to have enough power in the game for their demands to matter so you actually have to listen to the families etc. You take a bit of tyranny which is even beneficial and thats it. No biggy. I much rather the EU Rome system where having the senate opposed blocked all together diplomatic actions like war, alliances etc. It made you care about your factions and their approval a lot more.

So yeah, its a tricky one

Aren't you blocked from actions if below 30 senate approval?

 

[Hannibal_theCannibal]

This.

The Senate should be made much more influential when you're playing as a republic. Let the player nominate candidates for government jobs, but it should ultimately be up to the Senate itself to pick governors, admirals, generals, and all the offices. This would make maintaining senatorial approval extremely important, and make republics feel more unique.
This would also make it necessary to add even more senate faction missions like "conquer here", "build X building there", "improve relations with X", or "ally X."

Seriously. If you want the player to feel like they're part of a republic, then the AI characters (the Senate and specific characters with large powerbases) need to be given more autonomy within the nation.

The player/Consul should nominate characters to positions and the Senate should have the ability to veto. Depending on the pull of a particular faction leader or Great Family head, some positions should just automatically be filled and be locked in for a brief window of time. 90% of the time, this should lead to placing their Great family heads in important roles and helping themselves to be contented families. 10% of the time, one powerful family should look to fill offices at the expense of another family, so now you have one grateful family and one scorned family, with limited options to try to rectify the situation. That sounds much more engaging than 'press some buttons, everyone is happy, fill office with either the guy i wanted or the guy that will give me content families.'

For Rome (and Carthage by extension), I'd love to see the Co-consul/Co-Suffette actually make decisions and be an important part of the government outside of 'how good are his stats and is he going to try to start a civil war?' Because right now, I think that's all they do and it should be a bit more engaging than that I think.

 

[Trunting]

Couldnt both mechanics be on at the same time?

 

[cristofolmc]

Aren't you blocked from actions if below 30 senate approval?

I dont know, I have never ever seen such low senate approval, even vetoing most of what they put in front of me.

 

[maxk94]

I have no idea how popular this idea is, I truly don't, it may be I am the only one who thinks this way but alas, here we go.

I think Republics of all stripes should lose the great families mechanic, and in its replacement, it should treat the factions as great families. So instead of the Cornelii demanding 4 jobs and getting pissy that they only have 3, it should be the Populares demanding 4 jobs and getting pissy if they only have 3. Characters would still have families, they'd breed just as normal, but thered be no great family mechanic behind it.

Why do I think this? Well it would certainly differentiate republics from monarchies more, with the "great blobs of characters" not being related and instead be malleable and able to shift and change their allegiances over time. It would also, I believe, increase the overall stats of your government in a republic, as you'd have more characters to choose from.

Lemme know what you think? Dumb idea? Inspired? idk..

Well maybe not removing families at all, but parties shall demanding seats only or as well. The Parties are not relevant enough atm, thats true.

 

[Todie]

Well maybe not removing families at all, but parties shall demanding seats only or as well. The Parties are not relevant enough atm, thats true.

I think, the thing that makes parties arguably "not relevant enough" is the lack of events or other things pulling approval back down when it goes over like 70 etc...

 

[Decius]

I would love to see a major improvement for republics someday. I know, we already got one, but I think we need another one - the current parties can stay (so not another party overhaul), but republics need refinements and some enhancements - not an total overhaul, but major improvements. I don't need it in the update 2.1 or 2.2 already, but in 2.3 or 2.4 it would be nice!
In such an update, I'm hoping the scorned family mechanic isn't a thing anymore for republics, but families should still matter alongside parties. One day I hope we have major distinctions between tribes, republics and monarchies.

 

[Chiron]

Seriously. If you want the player to feel like they're part of a republic, then the AI characters (the Senate and specific characters with large powerbases) need to be given more autonomy within the nation.

The player/Consul should nominate characters to positions and the Senate should have the ability to veto. Depending on the pull of a particular faction leader or Great Family head, some positions should just automatically be filled and be locked in for a brief window of time. 90% of the time, this should lead to placing their Great family heads in important roles and helping themselves to be contented families. 10% of the time, one powerful family should look to fill offices at the expense of another family, so now you have one grateful family and one scorned family, with limited options to try to rectify the situation. That sounds much more engaging than 'press some buttons, everyone is happy, fill office with either the guy i wanted or the guy that will give me content families.'

For Rome (and Carthage by extension), I'd love to see the Co-consul/Co-Suffette actually make decisions and be an important part of the government outside of 'how good are his stats and is he going to try to start a civil war?' Because right now, I think that's all they do and it should be a bit more engaging than that I think.

Especially with Roman Republic the senate needs to designate regions or provinces for the consul to pay attention to.

It's defying that led to the breakdown of the Republic under Marius and ultimately Caesar

 

[Battlex]

Especially with Roman Republic the senate needs to designate regions or provinces for the consul to pay attention to.

It's defying that led to the breakdown of the Republic under Marius and ultimately Caesar

how so?

 

[olivenkranz]

Senate wanted one thing, Caesar another. The Senate had troops and Pompey, Caesar had his troops. Caesar crossed the Rubicon, Caesar won.
Thats how.

 

[AggaWackTan]

I think you might have asked the wrong question though. The biggest problem is not great families, we need them. The problem is ‘demanding jobs’. So giving parties this system would just keep the problem lying around.

The families of Rome for the most part didn’t compete with the senate, they competed with each other. The threat of losing their powerbase is the main factor in them becoming rebellious, not actually having powerbase.

But the player should have the option of supporting of guiding the family of their choosing into a dictatorship.

The demanding job system should be replaced with a system of trying to manage the friction the families cause between themselves into a struggle for powerbase and the fallout of characters losing powerbase. But this should be balanced so that expansive republics are more at risk than small republics. This means rebellious families in a position of power to levy troops such as a governor or legate can spark a rebellion, if the senate is demanding the removal from office of a certain character due to a nefarious conspiracy from a competing family. The struggle should be in keeping family politics out of the senate.

Also senate approval needs a complete rejigging so it doesn’t improve at 0.2 per month or some rubbish like that. If you agree to a parties demands or promise to achieve them within a certain timeframe if given the approval to do so then you should be able to bribe/ negotiate a certain level of senate approval straight away.