A potentially controversial spicy hot take (maybe?) - Republics should drop Great Families.

[Lord Lambert]

I have no idea how popular this idea is, I truly don't, it may be I am the only one who thinks this way but alas, here we go.

I think Republics of all stripes should lose the great families mechanic, and in its replacement, it should treat the factions as great families. So instead of the Cornelii demanding 4 jobs and getting pissy that they only have 3, it should be the Populares demanding 4 jobs and getting pissy if they only have 3. Characters would still have families, they'd breed just as normal, but thered be no great family mechanic behind it.

Why do I think this? Well it would certainly differentiate republics from monarchies more, with the "great blobs of characters" not being related and instead be malleable and able to shift and change their allegiances over time. It would also, I believe, increase the overall stats of your government in a republic, as you'd have more characters to choose from.

Lemme know what you think? Dumb idea? Inspired? idk..

 

[IsaacCAT]

Good idea! Nevertheless, the family object should be kept, for future Empires or political power struggles besides factions. But the main focus in Republics should be parties not families.

 

[Daft]

I have no idea how popular this idea is, I truly don't, it may be I am the only one who thinks this way but alas, here we go.

I think Republics of all stripes should lose the great families mechanic, and in its replacement, it should treat the factions as great families. So instead of the Cornelii demanding 4 jobs and getting pissy that they only have 3, it should be the Populares demanding 4 jobs and getting pissy if they only have 3. Characters would still have families, they'd breed just as normal, but thered be no great family mechanic behind it.

Why do I think this? Well it would certainly differentiate republics from monarchies more, with the "great blobs of characters" not being related and instead be malleable and able to shift and change their allegiances over time. It would also, I believe, increase the overall stats of your government in a republic, as you'd have more characters to choose from.

Lemme know what you think? Dumb idea? Inspired? idk..

I think the idea is sound enough from a gameplay perspective, but I would probably prefer to have the family mechanic expanded upon. At least in the case of Rome, I think prominent patrician families had an influence on the republic, but I am not 100% sure on how this could be fleshed out more tbh.

Maybe the middle ground is tying the factions and families even tighter together? But meh, I don't know though. I do like the flavor of the great families.

 

[Torugu]

I have no idea how popular this idea is, I truly don't, it may be I am the only one who thinks this way but alas, here we go.

I think Republics of all stripes should lose the great families mechanic, and in its replacement, it should treat the factions as great families. So instead of the Cornelii demanding 4 jobs and getting pissy that they only have 3, it should be the Populares demanding 4 jobs and getting pissy if they only have 3. Characters would still have families, they'd breed just as normal, but thered be no great family mechanic behind it.

Why do I think this? Well it would certainly differentiate republics from monarchies more, with the "great blobs of characters" not being related and instead be malleable and able to shift and change their allegiances over time. It would also, I believe, increase the overall stats of your government in a republic, as you'd have more characters to choose from.

Lemme know what you think? Dumb idea? Inspired? idk..

Uhm... meh?

Honestly, I don't love or hate this idea.

I think it would make republics less unique. A big part of playing a republic right now is that you have worry about your characters a bit more, because you need to satisfy both great families and political parties at the same time. This generally makes it a bit harder to decide which character to assign to which job. Which I suppose is an "interesting" challenge. (Quotation marks, because I personally don't like it, but I recognise it as good game design.)

On the other had, the net affect of the current system is that republics often have worse characters in charge, when intuitively it seems like it should be the opposite. Also, as I said, I'm not the biggest fan of the current republican game play, so I wouldn't mind seeing it changed.

 

[Limbojack]

Ugh, I have mixed feelings about this.

Great families aren't really playing into the senate factions that well, but at the same time the great families pretty much dominated the internal politics of republics for a long time during the game's timeframe -and I would prefer them to at least try to fix this before they got rid of the entire great family mechanic itself.

 

[Todie]

A big part of playing a republic right now is that you have worry about your characters a bit more, because you need to satisfy both great families and political parties at the same time. This generally makes it a bit harder to decide which character to assign to which job. Which I suppose is an "interesting" challenge.

Indeed. And I would add, an attentive player at the helm of a republic is always on the lookout for who may end up elected consul or archon - that's another layer to it all, that monarchies don't have at all, (tribes kind of do, but in a restricted way).

Republics of all stripes should lose the great families mechanic, and in its replacement, it should treat the factions as great families. So instead of the Cornelii demanding 4 jobs and getting pissy that they only have 3, it should be the Populares demanding 4 jobs and getting pissy if they only have 3

These considerations already exist - but not towards making the factions pissy -- instead towards making the factions less powerful and augment their individual degree of influence over the senate - and by extension undermine their faction without direct impact on loyalty or faction-approval:

• A governor or Legate without extravagant qualities or high popularity may have considerable power, but away from the senate, their senatorial influence(SI) will be low (due to the -100% SI modifier for these jobs -- modifiers from popularity and traits can bring it back over 0%)
• Government-office holders, researchers and admirals(!) get powerbase from their jobs with full impact on their SI
• powerbase from loyal cohorts and holdings have an additional layer of importance due to their indirect effect on senatorial influence

The fact that its possible to favour some factions over others without making them pissy, is very good.

... I'm of the firm opinion that the separation of family mechanics and senate-faction mechanics should stay.

 

[IsaacCAT]

On the other had, the net affect of the current system is that republics often have worse characters in charge, when intuitively it seems like it should be the opposite. Also, as I said, I'm not the biggest fan of the current republican game play, so I wouldn't mind seeing it changed.

The scorned family mechanism is too prominent and psychologically affects players’ decision making too much. The malus for scorned family is not that bad but we end up choosing bad characters to avoid it.

I will make it less prominent and put to the fore power base. This is the main factor in politics and it should be made explicit by the game. Factions and families should battle for power base against the player.

 

[Zylathas]

I think your factional approach would be good in general that each faction demands a certain number of jobs. But that should not be instead of great families, it should be in addition to it. Only with the factions you can very well decide not to give one of them jobs. (a.k.a penalties are less harsh)

Instead I would go for a more class based approach something akin to Patricians, nobles and new man for rome. (Nobles and new man as a stand in for the historical knights)

 

[trjacobin]

I have no idea how popular this idea is, I truly don't, it may be I am the only one who thinks this way but alas, here we go.

I think Republics of all stripes should lose the great families mechanic, and in its replacement, it should treat the factions as great families. So instead of the Cornelii demanding 4 jobs and getting pissy that they only have 3, it should be the Populares demanding 4 jobs and getting pissy if they only have 3. Characters would still have families, they'd breed just as normal, but thered be no great family mechanic behind it.

Why do I think this? Well it would certainly differentiate republics from monarchies more, with the "great blobs of characters" not being related and instead be malleable and able to shift and change their allegiances over time. It would also, I believe, increase the overall stats of your government in a republic, as you'd have more characters to choose from.

Lemme know what you think? Dumb idea? Inspired? idk..

I've been saying this throughout the forums over the past 1 year. Agreed.

In a way I think this could be simulated. If I knew how to mod, I would add a trait like '+.1 populares' to the, example, Cornelii bloodline (the way the bloodline mod adds traits). Others could have +.1 optimates or boni. It'd simulate how certain families had a strong patron that wanted his family members to 'act' a certain way (and those that move out of the family line could be quite unique then).

Better yet, just have the political leaning mode from HOI3 here (the ideologies triangle if you guys recall). Situate the characters on that and see who's leaning towards where---and add 'convince to faction' character interaction to try to sway certain 'bench' characters to your (so for political influence cost you add, for like 30 months, a +.10 to your faction side effect on them).

These characters and their political leaning should matter and how you want to be influence or hate them. Optimates should really try to hound the populares and vs. Also, senate goals of the parties should be more about trying to hurt one another.

 

[MohawkWolfo98]

Im fine with keeping Great Families or removing it. I just Minor characters to be able to reproduce male heirs and for more historical characters: I just don't relate to the characters as much as I could and I want a Caesar so I can be motivated to make an Empire and RP him.

 

[LuciusCincinnatus]

I think factions should be more important, but great families should still play a role. I'd like to see families more closely tied to factions, with each family having a sort of "allegiance" to faction, perhaps based on the faction of the family head, though renegades belonging to a different faction than their family's could still exist. I think having the factions demand influence and/or jobs is a good idea though.

 

[Todie]

I think factions should be more important, but great families should still play a role. I'd like to see families more closely tied to factions, with each family having a sort of "allegiance" to faction, perhaps based on the faction of the family head, though renegades belonging to a different faction than their family's could still exist. I think having the factions demand influence and/or jobs is a good idea though.

The faction affiliation of the family head does affect the leanings of his family members - in ways that also interact with their traits.

 

[cristofolmc]

What would be the difference? I kinda see what youre suggested but not really. Youd give jobs to factions? To faction members to have the faction happy?

 

[LuciusCincinnatus]

The faction affiliation of the family head does affect the leanings of his family members - in ways that also interact with their traits.

Yes, but I'd like it to be stronger and a more explicit part of the system

 

[IsaacCAT]

What would be the difference? I kinda see what youre suggested but not really. Youd give jobs to factions? To faction members to have the faction happy?

I would like factions to ask for jobs directly to the Player to get more seats on the Senate and finally get more power base.

The player now pays attention to family loyalty and power base of heads of families (they accrue all the family holdings). For monarchies that is all fine but for Republics it leaves the parties ignored after you have the 60% approval rating.

If parties demanded jobs for their members and struggle for power base, the game could pool their members’ power base as now does for family heads and threaten the player with civil war with ease.

The idea is good, the implementation has to be ironed out to keep families around but give political parties the punch they sorely need.

 

[Chiron]

Ugh, I have mixed feelings about this.

Great families aren't really playing into the senate factions that well, but at the same time the great families pretty much dominated the internal politics of republics for a long time during the game's timeframe -and I would prefer them to at least try to fix this before they got rid of the entire great family mechanic itself.

Great Families and Republic run into the problem of "your playing this game as an omnipotent ruler" but your also playing the role of a different character each time the election occurs so theres no actual investment or need to care about the great families in any way.

Unless you remove a massive amount of player agency and limit them to one family, or if you play a handover game where different people take over on ruelr death.

Your always going to struggle to replicate a republic in a single player game.

 

[Pirarucu]

To ignore the importante of families in republics is an error. Even in the roman republic families used marriages to seek political alliances.
That said, I agree that they should work in a different way than the monarchy system, and that the current great families mechanics suit monarchies more.

 

[Akbar The Great]

If it will make Republics less boring and less of a chore to play - then yes.

 

[Paghalay]

I think great families should still exist but function inside the political factions more, have them more integrated with each other as they were historically.

 

[SeekTruthFromFx]

I strongly oppose this. In ancient republics, family was more important than faction, and Great Families is a clever way to make you think about it without having to keep track of every single character. The factions did not have party machines or primaries selecting candidates for office.

As so often the problem isn't the mechanic, it's the UI: the scorned family notification gives the impression that it's an imminent crisis, when actually it's fine to have one or two scorned families all the time. The solution is to allow players to choose which level of message they receive for each notification, so that experienced players could move it to the Minor Event Queue.