Hi folks.
To integrate the system that Catholic and Orthodox AI rulers use to grant titles to courtiers (and thus divide their realms into duchies and/or counties) is apparently something that would be incredibly time-consuming for Johan to code for Moslems and Pagans. (Don’t ask me why…I’m not sure). If there is no other possible work-around then I will pursue it with him further, but I may have come up with a solution that will resolve the issues that people have with the present game and will require none (well…almost none) of Johan’s time to implement. The trouble is that I’m a little bit rusty on some of the rules about inheritance and one of the specific event effects and Johan won’t be back for a while for me to check with him about it. I thought, instead, that I’d present the rough idea to you folks and see if you think that (1) it would work as I think it would, and that (2) it stands a reasonable chance of accomplishing what we all want it to: the fracturing of large Moslem and pagan realms.
So to all you experts out there, here’s the idea. Will it work?
Presently, Moslems realms have the problem of not granting titles. It usually doesn’t take very much time until a small number of über-realms have been formed that are far too large and scary for most human players to tackle, and seem to be insurmountable for AI Christian rulers. It also means that there is really no internal dissent in those realms and that the only problem they run into is that when they get *very* large they will eventually lose the ability to field any sort of army due to the massive efficiency penalties. You can’t break the up because they don’t have any vassals that you can have rebel…and making a bunch of provinces go into revolt isn’t a solution either. Rebelling provinces actually help the Moslem realm by supplying “free” troops that an invading Christian army will have to defeat (in addition to having to contend with the ruler’s main army). The situation is even worse with the Hordes due to their (insanely) high demesne size bonus. The only part of this proposal that will require Johan’s touch is to export the Horde demesne bonus to a tag value (more on that, later).
Of course I also don’t want to arbitrarily cripple the non-Christians either, since that will remove much of the challenge from the game – particularly later on when most human players will have large realms of their own. Of course I could cripple humans too, but I somehow think that this might not be such a good game design decision.
What I see, then, is a set of six events that might accomplish what we want:
Of course this isn’t historically accurate, but the idea is to set the conditions in the realm such that when the current ruler dies the realm will be split up amongst the ruler’s heirs and become a series of small “counties” within the original realm. I am fairly certain that this is the way that semisalic gavelkind works (but confirmation would be nice).
Example:
King Mohammad of Xland has a demesne of 20 provinces and has 5 sons. Under this law, when Mohammad dies the realm *should* be split up into five equal parts, each under one of his sons, with the eldest (?) son also becoming the new King of Xland.
The trouble is that there is no guarantee that the rulers will have a suitably large number of heirs so the kingdoms may not fracture when he dies. It’s also impossible to “create” heirs via event, so to resolve this we add two more events:
My understanding of bastards that are created this way is that they are from the same line as the ruler but have the bastard trait and thus can’t inherit. Therefore…
In theory, this courtier should now be in line for inheritance when the current ruler dies. This means that just in case the ruler isn't producing many natural heirs of his own, we should now have a nice (growning) stable of heirs and his realm should fracture when he dies.
So now we wait for the current ruler to die…and we can help him along a bit by fermenting an assassination plot…
So either the ruler dies of natural causes (old age) or he dies in battle or he is killed by the event. The above event just makes it a little more likely that he will die sooner rahter than later. At that point our large unified realm with lots of demesne provinces is split into a a large realm with a bunch of lesser vassals. They will stop spawning bastards since the efficiency will probably be back within the efficiency limits (and if they aren’t then it’s okay to continue spawning them). We now introduce the possibility of rebellion from within…
So now, after a few years, we’ve given the chance for the realm to break itself up a bit – although it may not do some entirely. What we need to do, then, is return things back to normal.
In theory, I think we have now successfully broken up that big scary realm.
One of the advantages of this is that is bases a lot of its mechanics on realm efficiency, so this will tend to allow larger, scarier realms as the game progresses (since the efficiency max increases with each passing century) and will therefore present sufficient challenge to players in the later stages of the game when they (usually) have large demesnes themselves.
The only hitch is our friendly neighbourhood Mongol Hordes…
My possible solutions for that are:
So. What do you folks think? Will the above solution achieve what I think it will? Can you think of anything I’ve neglected to take into consideration? Is there any error I’m making in the actual mechanics of the way that the inheritance laws work, or the way that the “create bastard” effect works? Do you like it?
I’m looking forward to your collective feedback.
Cheers!
Chris
To integrate the system that Catholic and Orthodox AI rulers use to grant titles to courtiers (and thus divide their realms into duchies and/or counties) is apparently something that would be incredibly time-consuming for Johan to code for Moslems and Pagans. (Don’t ask me why…I’m not sure). If there is no other possible work-around then I will pursue it with him further, but I may have come up with a solution that will resolve the issues that people have with the present game and will require none (well…almost none) of Johan’s time to implement. The trouble is that I’m a little bit rusty on some of the rules about inheritance and one of the specific event effects and Johan won’t be back for a while for me to check with him about it. I thought, instead, that I’d present the rough idea to you folks and see if you think that (1) it would work as I think it would, and that (2) it stands a reasonable chance of accomplishing what we all want it to: the fracturing of large Moslem and pagan realms.
So to all you experts out there, here’s the idea. Will it work?
Presently, Moslems realms have the problem of not granting titles. It usually doesn’t take very much time until a small number of über-realms have been formed that are far too large and scary for most human players to tackle, and seem to be insurmountable for AI Christian rulers. It also means that there is really no internal dissent in those realms and that the only problem they run into is that when they get *very* large they will eventually lose the ability to field any sort of army due to the massive efficiency penalties. You can’t break the up because they don’t have any vassals that you can have rebel…and making a bunch of provinces go into revolt isn’t a solution either. Rebelling provinces actually help the Moslem realm by supplying “free” troops that an invading Christian army will have to defeat (in addition to having to contend with the ruler’s main army). The situation is even worse with the Hordes due to their (insanely) high demesne size bonus. The only part of this proposal that will require Johan’s touch is to export the Horde demesne bonus to a tag value (more on that, later).
Of course I also don’t want to arbitrarily cripple the non-Christians either, since that will remove much of the challenge from the game – particularly later on when most human players will have large realms of their own. Of course I could cripple humans too, but I somehow think that this might not be such a good game design decision.
What I see, then, is a set of six events that might accomplish what we want:
Code:
[b][u]Event #1:[/u] A large non-Christian realm is in need of breaking up[/b]
Character event
[b]Triggers for…[/b]
- a non-Christian independent ruler
- realm law is NOT semisalic gavelkind
- realm efficiency < 1.0
[b]MTTH and Modifiers…[/b]
- fairly short mtth (in the order of a few months or a year, perhaps)
- perhaps some regional modifiers to make it somewhat more likely in Iberia and less likely in the Middle East
- probably modified by stewardship values and some traits
[b]Effects…[/b]
- set realm law to semisalic gavelkindOf course this isn’t historically accurate, but the idea is to set the conditions in the realm such that when the current ruler dies the realm will be split up amongst the ruler’s heirs and become a series of small “counties” within the original realm. I am fairly certain that this is the way that semisalic gavelkind works (but confirmation would be nice).
Example:
King Mohammad of Xland has a demesne of 20 provinces and has 5 sons. Under this law, when Mohammad dies the realm *should* be split up into five equal parts, each under one of his sons, with the eldest (?) son also becoming the new King of Xland.
The trouble is that there is no guarantee that the rulers will have a suitably large number of heirs so the kingdoms may not fracture when he dies. It’s also impossible to “create” heirs via event, so to resolve this we add two more events:
Code:
[b][u]Event #2:[/u] Create a courtier who can become an heir[/b]
Character event
[b]Triggers for…[/b]
- a non-Christian independent ruler
- realm law is semisalic gavelkind
- realm efficiency < 1.0
[b]MTTH and Modifiers…[/b]
- medium mtth (in the order of a couple years or so)
- perhaps some regional modifiers, stewardship, and traits?
[b]Effects…[/b]
- create courtier: bastardMy understanding of bastards that are created this way is that they are from the same line as the ruler but have the bastard trait and thus can’t inherit. Therefore…
Code:
[b][u]Event #3:[/u] Convert this courtier we’ve created into an heir[/b]
Character event
[b]Triggers for…[/b]
- a non-Christian courtier
- has trait: bastard
- liege is also non-Christian
(I’m not including the realm law or efficiency checks so these courtiers can continue to be useful in future)
[b]MTTH and Modifiers…[/b]
- fairly short mtth (in the order of a year)
- maybe some regional modifiers, but likely not
[b]Effects…[/b]
- remove trait: bastard
[color=limegreen]Editted to add one more effect:[/color]
- increase stats a little with random chance of of increasing them even further
(this counteracts the bastard at half parent stats issue)In theory, this courtier should now be in line for inheritance when the current ruler dies. This means that just in case the ruler isn't producing many natural heirs of his own, we should now have a nice (growning) stable of heirs and his realm should fracture when he dies.
So now we wait for the current ruler to die…and we can help him along a bit by fermenting an assassination plot…
Code:
[b][u]Event #4:[/u] The time is ripe for some mayhem[/b]
Character event
[b]Triggers for…[/b]
- a non-Christian independent ruler
- realm law is semisalic gavelkind
- realm efficiency < 1.0
- the number of adult courtiers is high (exact values will need some testing)
[b]MTTH and Modifiers…[/b]
- medium mtth (in the order of 2-5 years or so…will need balancing)
- perhaps some regional modifiers, stewardship, and traits?
- perhaps more likely to happen if not at war
[b]Effects…[/b]
- death (ruler dies)So either the ruler dies of natural causes (old age) or he dies in battle or he is killed by the event. The above event just makes it a little more likely that he will die sooner rahter than later. At that point our large unified realm with lots of demesne provinces is split into a a large realm with a bunch of lesser vassals. They will stop spawning bastards since the efficiency will probably be back within the efficiency limits (and if they aren’t then it’s okay to continue spawning them). We now introduce the possibility of rebellion from within…
Code:
[b][u]Event #5:[/u]Fracturing of large non-Christian realm into smaller independent realms[/b]
Character event
[b]Triggers for…[/b]
- a non-Christian ruler who is a vassal
- realm ruler is non-Christian
- realm ruler’s law is semisalic gavelkind
[b]MTTH and Modifiers…[/b]
- medium mtth (in the order of a few years or so)
- some regional modifiers, stewardship, and traits?
- reduced chance if at war
[b]Effects…[/b]
- vassal declares independenceSo now, after a few years, we’ve given the chance for the realm to break itself up a bit – although it may not do some entirely. What we need to do, then, is return things back to normal.
Code:
[b][u]Event #6:[/u]Setting things back to normal[/b]
Character event
[b]Triggers for…[/b]
- a non-Christian ruler (vassal or independent…or maybe just for independents?)
- law is semisalic gavelkind
- demesne efficiency = 1 (so we don’t turn off event #1 until it has achieved its desired effect)
[b]MTTH and Modifiers…[/b]
- medium mtth (in the order of a few years or so)
- some regional modifiers, stewardship, and traits?
[b]Effects…[/b]
- change law to either semisalic primogen. or semisalic cosang. (would depend on the historic regional trend)One of the advantages of this is that is bases a lot of its mechanics on realm efficiency, so this will tend to allow larger, scarier realms as the game progresses (since the efficiency max increases with each passing century) and will therefore present sufficient challenge to players in the later stages of the game when they (usually) have large demesnes themselves.
The only hitch is our friendly neighbourhood Mongol Hordes…
My possible solutions for that are:
- to ask Johan to export the current hard limits for the demesne max of Hordes (and the Byzantine Emperor) into a value that can be adjusted via event. I’d have to think about exactly what kind of events should alter this value, but that’s relatively trivial.
- As Johan to simply reduce the Mongol Horde 100-province demesne bonus down to a much smaller limit (maybe 10-20?) and script some other events to help support the Hordes in instances where they are too much weakened by this.
- Export it to a value that is read when the game starts and is scaled to the difficulty level of the game. (similar to HoI2’s approach to this stuff)
- Some other solution that I haven’t thought of yet.
So. What do you folks think? Will the above solution achieve what I think it will? Can you think of anything I’ve neglected to take into consideration? Is there any error I’m making in the actual mechanics of the way that the inheritance laws work, or the way that the “create bastard” effect works? Do you like it?
I’m looking forward to your collective feedback.
Cheers!
Chris
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