France is not OP, just a powerful nation in the hands of the AI, much like Austria, Muscovy, Castile, Ottomans, etc. If anything, France is a counter balance to Austria's HRE(as Austria rarely loses emperor status without player interference), with a weak France Austria will be even worst than it already is as it will still have its hordes of allies yet it will lose the only nation that constantly fights it and keeps it in check. Also, while France can defeat hordes of troops, it rarely expands beyond its natural borders and doesn't do anything a-historic, unlike say Castile or Portugal who oftentimes colonize Siberia, very early too.
A poll for what the community thinks about France.
- Thread starter Casus_Belli
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France is not OP.
Also, Spain and Austria are worse. The former has far less releasable and colonizes frakking everything. No, I do not care if that's historical, because I am trying to stop them because they paint the map an ugly color. The latter om nom noms the HRE princes, gets other nations to completely wreck both themselves and Austria's enemies, and has magical annexation immunity due to having functional Erbkaisertum without player intervention because I think I can count the number of times that I've seen the AI vote for someone other than Habsblob without some sort of player intervention on one hand..
Also, Spain and Austria are worse. The former has far less releasable and colonizes frakking everything. No, I do not care if that's historical, because I am trying to stop them because they paint the map an ugly color. The latter om nom noms the HRE princes, gets other nations to completely wreck both themselves and Austria's enemies, and has magical annexation immunity due to having functional Erbkaisertum without player intervention because I think I can count the number of times that I've seen the AI vote for someone other than Habsblob without some sort of player intervention on one hand..
Not OP.
Could use a late-game buff and maybe a small early game nerf (the latter to make it somewhat more interesting to play), but as a whole the balance is fine.
Could use a late-game buff and maybe a small early game nerf (the latter to make it somewhat more interesting to play), but as a whole the balance is fine.
France is not op, though i would like them to suffer higher aggressive expansion so they would get containing coalitions, not this joke where bbb takes 5 provinces and only 1 country joins coalition, every other nation gets like 16 ae against bbb...
I don't think France is OP. In my Hesse game I've managed to beat them up alone by using proper tactics and an actual focus on military ideas and technology. Half the whining about France always comes from people that take diplomatic, economic and trade ideas in that order with a nation that has no discipline or morale bonuses and then get beat up because their troops are shit. If you are prepared, motivated and willing to actually suffer setbacks without rage quitting France is quite beatable.
But I agree... domestic policy would be something that could make the game even more interesting.
But I agree... domestic policy would be something that could make the game even more interesting.
That's one reason, but even so it is not OP on its own.
The real problem is the absurdity of the luck bonus, mostly the AE reduction and ruler bonuses. Most of my games, Austria / Muscowy / France tend to blob extensively purely because nobody cares that they gobble up their neighbors at an extremely rapid pace. After a certain point, AI cannot handle them anymore and their opposing coalition (if they even get one) consists of 1 or two minors that cannot do anything against even a medium sized country.
Coalitions were supposed to be there to punish nations that expand too fast, but it does nothing against the lucky nations (which tend to be in the position for rapid expansion anyway)
If you people keep bitching,you can bet that the comet event in EUV will grant -1 stab to the player + 1 stab to France.Just saying
I think France is kinda OP, but only because in France all the bonuses of Lucky really accumulate. France has great armies with powerful leaders and half god kings, it's able to expand very fast without issues (vassal annexing / Burgundy) and it has no appearent weaknesses. If you focus on beating them, you can do it, but if you don't it's nearly impossible later on, not to mention the possibility that you allie and let it grow, only to get rivaled by it because reasons.
France is OP.
Regardless of the other powers of Europa I dont think France was that much centralized at IRL. And yeah I am aware of the fact that France have many vassals already.
So for both gameplay and accurecy reasons France should start with higher autonomy along with Burgundy. This way it would be possible both for a France dominated continental Europa late game and relativly stronger but not god-like early France.
Regardless of the other powers of Europa I dont think France was that much centralized at IRL. And yeah I am aware of the fact that France have many vassals already.
So for both gameplay and accurecy reasons France should start with higher autonomy along with Burgundy. This way it would be possible both for a France dominated continental Europa late game and relativly stronger but not god-like early France.
I think the biggest issue at hand is not that France is OP, but the Lucky nations buff are OP. If they took away the AE reduction, that would be a big step towards keeping the french in check.
A move that I see in many games is France fully annexing Provence in their first war. You do this as the player, you get an instant coalition big enough to challenge you. The AI? Barely 20 AE with Burgundy.
If you're playing in Europe, as a secondary power at minimum, your first priority should be containing them early. The longer you wait, the harder it becomes. France tends to get some good alliances after annexing their vassals (Castille, Hungary, Poland), leaving you with a two-front war.
You can take them down later on, of course. Austria, Italy, Spain, Prussia, England, Sweden. Those are all lucky nations, but if you're playing one of them, you can take France head-on (assuming your allies take care of their allies).
If you started with some backwater OPM or weak nation (I don't get most players obsession with that. I mean, sure the start is harder, but once you get the ball rolling it's just like any other game) like Switzerland, Frankfurt or something out of Europe, just forget it. Send them an alliance and carry on with your game.
A move that I see in many games is France fully annexing Provence in their first war. You do this as the player, you get an instant coalition big enough to challenge you. The AI? Barely 20 AE with Burgundy.
If you're playing in Europe, as a secondary power at minimum, your first priority should be containing them early. The longer you wait, the harder it becomes. France tends to get some good alliances after annexing their vassals (Castille, Hungary, Poland), leaving you with a two-front war.
You can take them down later on, of course. Austria, Italy, Spain, Prussia, England, Sweden. Those are all lucky nations, but if you're playing one of them, you can take France head-on (assuming your allies take care of their allies).
If you started with some backwater OPM or weak nation (I don't get most players obsession with that. I mean, sure the start is harder, but once you get the ball rolling it's just like any other game) like Switzerland, Frankfurt or something out of Europe, just forget it. Send them an alliance and carry on with your game.
Just a point of contention... beating the French with the Swiss is absurdly easy due to mountains.
French with their army tradition, morale and other modifiers would easily beat Swiss no matter what terrain it is, Swiss would simply be outnumbered and France takes similar casualties to you when they attack you are in the mountains..Just a point of contention... beating the French with the Swiss is absurdly easy due to mountains.
I think a strong France is needed for an interesting game, especially for the last part of game.
I've tried games where I constantly made them release nations and in the end, there was no real opposition, especially if HRE doesn't form.
I've tried games where I constantly made them release nations and in the end, there was no real opposition, especially if HRE doesn't form.
Obliterated France as Burgundy and formed it again, then it became easy as hell again. I assume it's not France that is OP but its 10+ base tax provinces.
Having recently written an AAR about France, I feel like I should say something here. Is France OP?
France has the ability to succeed in whatever they set their eyes on. No single nation on Earth can truly stop them. Russia, potentially, could, but by the time they become truly scary, they lag behind in tech. Plus they are quite far away.
In my AAR, an alliance web between Spain, Portugal and Austria kept me somewhat in check, but that may have been due to my being overly cautious. If the AI gets beat up early (say by an alliance between Castile and Burgundy), they can lose a lot of traction.
The main question, to me, is: do you mean OP in terms of historical potential, or in terms of game balance? Historically, France really was a monster. It took a lot to get them to bend. So, in that context, I don't feel like they are OP.
In terms of game balance? Probably, yes. Their massive tax base means that it will take half a dozen wars or more to take them out of the running. Their ideas and traditions, along with their massive Manpower, make them into a combat monster.
Do I mind? Not really, I guess. Whenever I play as anyone close enough to feel their presence, it gives me an added incentive not to p**s them off, or become a target. France being the BBB tends to make my game better, because I have to be at the top of my game at times like these.
France has the ability to succeed in whatever they set their eyes on. No single nation on Earth can truly stop them. Russia, potentially, could, but by the time they become truly scary, they lag behind in tech. Plus they are quite far away.
In my AAR, an alliance web between Spain, Portugal and Austria kept me somewhat in check, but that may have been due to my being overly cautious. If the AI gets beat up early (say by an alliance between Castile and Burgundy), they can lose a lot of traction.
The main question, to me, is: do you mean OP in terms of historical potential, or in terms of game balance? Historically, France really was a monster. It took a lot to get them to bend. So, in that context, I don't feel like they are OP.
In terms of game balance? Probably, yes. Their massive tax base means that it will take half a dozen wars or more to take them out of the running. Their ideas and traditions, along with their massive Manpower, make them into a combat monster.
Do I mind? Not really, I guess. Whenever I play as anyone close enough to feel their presence, it gives me an added incentive not to p**s them off, or become a target. France being the BBB tends to make my game better, because I have to be at the top of my game at times like these.
If 1.8 hasn't changed the situation, France is very op. You can basically take any small nation, ally France, and it will conquer everything for you.
Frankly this is not my experience. As the Swiss I held off against Austrian, Burgundian and French invaders and so long as my manpower/mercpool held out I could ward each of them off indefinetly. Of course I took defensive ideas as my first idea so that might be worth something.