A plea for services

[Emre Yigit]

Obviously, I like the concept of industry and agriculture. But I miss my services.

The industry in Victoria represented factories. Steel plants, textiles mills, distilleries and the like. And agriculture obviously represents goods produced off the land.

But what about services? The existence of a large banking sector in London was a major factor in shaping British history as well as providing funds for when the government thought it necessary to borrow. Theaters provided entertainment, later much expanded with the development of film.

And public services such as libraries, running water and sewerage had an impact on the quality of daily life.

I therefore make a plea for such items to be available in the build file. Banks: the difference between their development level and private sector needs as well as the interest rates charged to governments. Insurance companies: reduce the impact of disasters. Libraries and schools: improve education. Entertainment values and sewerage: improve civilian infrastructure (life sustainability, if you will). Of course, having schools and libraries and parks or whatnot would be a drain on resources not just of the users but the government too.

I am not overwhelmingly in favour of turning this into a simcity-style game, hence I can do without the civilian improvements, but I do believe that the financial sinews of a modern state are sorely lacking in all Paradox games.

 

[Orinsul]

maybe a national of provincal value for private business which rises as falls with given events are circumstances that represents services and shops and stuff and could show the rise and fall of small business during the time period.

 

[Emre Yigit]

maybe a national of provincal value for private business which rises as falls with given events are circumstances that represents services and shops and stuff and could show the rise and fall of small business during the time period.

This would for all the little services, though I guess it would be linked to industry (maybe?). But for, say, the City, I would still like to be able to influence its development directly.

 

[Pal]

Capitalists and Aristocrats acted as multiplyiers for income of first and second sector, so I'd call that ample representation of the third sector. In Victorian times, services weren't treated as economic activities anyways. This only emerged in the time after WW1...

 

[ashandresash]

Two related posts on the matter. First, historic argument supporting services taken in account. Second, a proposal for implementation. And two warnings: long post (the second one), and raw English expression (both of them). Sorry (I'm trying to improve, at least my English)

I think economy core of Vicky2 should be on resources and factories, but IMO services, should be present.

Some facts. How many people was employed in agriculture, industry or services in Vicky timeframe? The study I take like reference is based on England. A time before, in 1750 about a 48% of employment in was in primary sector (agriculture, fisheries, livestock and minery: farmers and labourers in POP terms); 40% in secondary (industry; craftsmen in POP terms) and just a 12% in terciary (services; it would be capitalists, clerks, clergymen, soldiers and officers in POP terms).

In 1851 the figures would be about a 32% in primary (-16 points), 46% in secondary (+6 points) and 22% in terciary (+10 points).

In 1871 (end of study), we'd have a 25% in primary (-7 points), 47% in secondary (+1 point) and 28% in terciary (+6 points).

So the period is not just a 'industrialising' process but a 'services explosion' too... At least in England.


Note: study (from researchers of University of Cambridge) shows adult male data (not children or women). A draft could be find here:

http://www.geog.cam.ac.uk/research/projects/occupations/introduction/summary.pdf

 

[ashandresash]

My proposal about services in Vicky2: I think on ten sectors. 3 of them representing current Vickye feautures, the other 7, might be implemented like EUIII province decisions (state-decisions in my proposal).

1) Dealers and sellers (Commercial sector). POP type: new type, like 'bourgeois'? Or artisans, or clerks. Vicky2 feature: state-decision (à la EUIII province decision) of 'commercial sector'. Requisites: you should need certain trade techs, and some clerks available, depending on state population. Effect: increasing commercial efficiency on the state (and a POP of clerks now employed). About commercial efficiency, I'd think in a factor affecting prices of goods and resources in a state (in a similar way that inflation works in EUIII). So, prices for factory resources or for consumers buying goods in a state would be higher if commercial sector is low developed.

2) Transport (Trade infrastructure). POP type: craftsmen or labourers. Vicky2 feature: state-decision of 'trade infrastructure'. Requisites: certain technologies, level of infrastructure and POP availability. Effect: increasing production efficiency of the state, representing improving your transport capacity (reducing waste and time losses in the process). Depending the way trade is represented (for example, needing harbours and customs for export, that could be special state-decisions). Of course, one more POP will be employed, increasing demand and taxes (and reducing local unemployment).

3) Financial services. POP type: clerks. Vicky2 feature: banks, insurance companies... state-decision. Requisites: a technology or discovery, available clerks and a level of cash reserves of capitalists and other middle to upper classes POPs. Effects: generation of financial instruments (FINs), as suggested in other of my posts, encouragement of capitalist investments... And once more, more POPs working.

4) Government. POP type: announced bureaucrats. Vicky2 feature: government authorities (state-decisions). Requisites: political technologies, and available POPs. Effect: increasing tax efficiency in the state, reducing crime... and a new POP working. It would be related to global population on the state (high populated demands of bureaucrats should be higher).

5) Education. POP type: clergymen, buraucrats later. Vicky2 feature: educational institutions. Requisities: cultural technologies and available POPs. Effect: increasing literacy; encouraging POP change to upper classes, special institutions (Universities, colleges...) could even increase production efficiency. And the known increase on POPs employed.

6) Healthcare and urban services. POP type: bureaucrats, or clerks better (I think on them like 'qualified workers'). Requisities: technologies and POP availability. Effect: improving quality of life in the state.

7) Culture, leisure time. POP type: artisans (if bourgeois are created, also them). Effects: it make appear a new 'product' to demand (for middle and upper classes): personal services (like restaurants, artistical representations...). A new development on this feature would mean more demand.

8) Professionals. Like clerks in Vicky: attached to factories, they represent qualified workers (engineers, architects... and so on)

9) Church. Like Vicky.

10) Armed forces. Like Vicky.

Finally... what's the scope? Which adventages I see in this?

First, some realistic representation of economy. Modernization was not only a question of industrialising, but of growing services. Not till the point of contemporary economies, but not irrelevant figures in Vicky timeframe. I like the idea of artisans and cottage introduced in Vicky2. Though we don't know how are they supposed to work, it could be be fine that farmers and labourers tend to convert into craftsmen, and cottages replaced by factories; artisans, now unemployed must: first, go into craftsment (the unlucky) or into clerks (qualified workers on factories), or going to services.

Second, giving a realistic support for tech and discoveries implementation and spread. It's not just automatic and instantaneous like in Vicky. It need some requisities. And IMO it's better than spreading à la Crusader Kings.

Third, creating additional 'unproductive' demand. Though the 'consumist capitalism' was historically adopted after Great Depression and WWII, the roots and the basis were previous. Great Depression was avoidable if this 'unproductive' but product demanding classes existed (and financial and monetary policy had been better).

Fourth, demand should grow through the period maybe for middle, sure for upper classes. In addition to taking 'quality of life' like a factor increasing certain goods demand as suggested in other posts, it could be find that an abstracted feauture of 'leisure services' should be demanded. That's the scope of 7th sector.

 

[OHgamer]

one essential group that everyone seems to want to forget is lower level "white collar" workers, people like small business owners, especially those involved in the retail trades. This was one of the major growth areas of the economy, since the working classes did not have time to grow their own food, make their own clothes and basic furniture, etc, so as societies urbanized in the period the retail sector becomes a major part of the economic growth.

And the people who own and operate these businesses, very often just their families or maybe a few (less than five) employees, did not at all see themselves as anything other than middle class, very rarely were they wealthy, and even if they had incomes lower than more specialized workers in factories they bridled at the mere suggestion they might be working class (and still do!).

And it would be among this group that some of the strongest supporters of hypernationalism and later fascism would arise.

V2 will have an artisan class included, I think the best solution would be to not have this class disappear (it never did anyways, even in the 1920s and 1930s you could visit tailors, furniture makers, etc) but rather have it evolve from the "Les Miserables" base of the 1848 revolutions into the mittelstand of small business owners, retailers and other "lower white collar" type labor that continually increased in importance in this period and explain politically why socialist parties in Europe never broke the 50% barrier in elections pre-1918, and only broke those barriers post-1918 by shifting towards revisionist and eventually social democratic policies that would appeal to sectors of this mittlestand group.

 

[SirGrotius]

i like this idea!

 

[OHgamer]

to elaborate further, what i'd like to see is there being some sort of link between the size of the working class and the size of the artisanal class, so that you would not see the entire artisan class converted to workers, but down to a certain ratio artisan:worker that once reached would mean further POP conversion would require taking POPs out of farming/RGOs to be converted to workers AND at least a supporting artisanal class to provide services. New technologies and inventions could then change the minimum balance needed between artisans and workers in favor of further increasing the percent of the population as artisans (see data in ashandresash's post, service sector grew as a percent of the total population more than industrial)

 

[ashandresash]

one essential group that everyone seems to want to forget is lower level "white collar" workers, people like small business owners, especially those involved in the retail trades. This was one of the major growth areas of the economy, since the working classes did not have time to grow their own food, make their own clothes and basic furniture, etc, so as societies urbanized in the period the retail sector becomes a major part of the economic growth.

(...)
V2 will have an artisan class included, I think the best solution would be to not have this class disappear (it never did anyways, even in the 1920s and 1930s you could visit tailors, furniture makers, etc) but rather have it evolve from the "Les Miserables" base of the 1848 revolutions into the mittelstand of small business owners, retailers and other "lower white collar" type labor that continually increased in importance in this period and explain politically why socialist parties in Europe never broke the 50% barrier in elections pre-1918, and only broke those barriers post-1918 by shifting towards revisionist and eventually social democratic policies that would appeal to sectors of this mittlestand group.

That's what I was trying to represent in 'commercial sector' (first of the 10 services types I think should be represented in Vicky2). I'm afraid I've not been clear enough... :wacko:

I like what you've said about artisans.

 

[byzantium43]

+1. But abstracting services into one type of upgrade I think would be best.

 

[Grosshaus]

I'd rather not have that much more stuff to build in provinces, since that would make larger countries tedious to play. But certainly these issues should be presented as inventions, decisions, events or sliders

 

[unmerged(180212)]

I accept with information:
First, go into craftsment (the unlucky) or into clerks (qualified workers on factories), or going to services.

Second, giving a realistic support for tech and discoveries implementation and spread.

Third, creating additional 'unproductive' demand. Though the 'consumist capitalism' was historically adopted after Great Depression and WWII, the roots and the basis were previous.

Fourth, demand should grow through the period maybe for middle, sure for upper classes.
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