A plea about how paradox is dumbing down the games.

[Driggsd]

I think that so many people forget the old addages about how an army marches on its stomache, and such. The logistics and resources in HOI2 makes it easy to forget about some corners of the world, and also get rid of some of the driving imperitaves for trade and war. I think Paradox has done itself a diservice by over simplifying the resources and logics. If customers want a war only game then the whole panzer general series, DOW series, or Axis and Allies should be ok.

Paradox you have an amazingly loyal fan base and own your niche! By dumbing down your games to gain a little more in market share you are turning off your die hards. Also you are diluting what makes your games special. The realism and fact based historical accurate games. Your games cry out to historians, intelectuals, and millitary men. Because they are the best simulations out there! You do wonderful research and very thoughtful customenr support. Dont ruin this with trying to symplify every thing! Most of your fans crave the complexity and chanlenge of what you do!

Look at the substansive and well argued post you get about logistics and resources. The debates on armor and infantry by the men that have used these in war, and have lived the doctrine and matenance of such units. Not just watched a history chanel show about them. Your fans are also informed. Use the knowledge they share. And play to it! You have THE BEST HISTORICAL GAMES hands down! Dont sully or degrade yourselfs by making an inferior product! Please.

 

[Sovereign]

I'm no soldier (nor would I wish to be) but I do think the absense of food as a resource is a serious ommision in the HoI games (not just for civilians, but to supply the military as well). It could be argued that Consumer Goods and Supplies serve this purpose, but you need fertile geography to produce food as well, not just IC.

Not sure about the general point of Paradox dumbing down the HoI series either, but food wasn't a resource in HoI1 anyway, so...

 

[Arentak]

I don't know that they are or are not dumbing down the game, but I am of the side of the argument that says "Make it harder, not easier".

I am still a fan of constructing divisions through adding brigades and regiments to a divisional headquarters..so, maybe my german panzer armies are 2 Panzer Brigades, 2 Mech Inf Brigades, 1 HQ batallion, and 2 motorized artillery regiments. Or maybe the panzers are overpowered, and all I've got are 4 Panzer Brigades and 1 HQ batallion. Those are the sorts of choices that would be good.

Some abstracted logistics would be ok, I'd hate to have to assign trucks to individual divisions too, but lets say in 1936, if I want to mass produce trucks to build up my supply capability, and in so doing, increase my gearing of truck production (which converts easy to tank production once I learn how to make a decent tank), then i should be able to. Or if I'm counting on a quick war, I should be able to gimp my supply situation and overbuild my tanks.

 

[unmerged(81228)]

I agree, for me ideal HoI3 would have economy and social model from Vic.

 

[Sovereign]

I agree, for me ideal HoI3 would have economy and social model from Vic.

You couldn't have POPs in the HoI series without them being subject to the various political ideologies present in the game. The only way to win that particular game is not to play it.

 

[unmerged(105596)]

It's pretty hard for a profit-seeking company to balance between hard-core-realistic complexity and a learning curve that will not look like the worse side of Matterhorn. But I think that Pdox has succeeded pretty well in it. Considering these games oversimplified may be in some cases justified, but generally it is not true. We're now talking about one of the most complex games available in the markets.

The key word here is "the markets". If you want even more complicated game, you have to make it yourself: no profit-seeking company will produce a game that would take years to learn. Sad but true! I think we should be happy that Paradox is here for us and they have realised the market value of this niche. (At least I am happy!)

 

[unmerged(81228)]

You couldn't have POPs in the HoI series without them being subject to the various political ideologies present in the game. The only way to win that particular game is not to play it..

Of course that they would have their own issues, that's the whole point. And it is exactly how it was working.

I'm not sure what you mean by:
The only way to win that particular game is not to play it.
Could you explain, please?

 

[Wulf145]

I agree, for me ideal HoI3 would have economy and social model from Vic.

Please no - anything but that. Maybe the economical model in HOI is a bit too abstract - but the Vic model is way to complicated IMO.

 

[Mrdie]

Please no - anything but that. Maybe the economical model in HOI is a bit too abstract - but the Vic model is way to complicated IMO.

The Vic model works fine on its own; in Victoria. The best argument against it in HOI3 is just imagining trying to manage it while fighting a world war.

 

[Driggsd]

Ok I think some of you have lost my point here.

Reading the post about what you want in the game and dont want in the game I keep hearing that the developers want to make the game more user friendly. Do away with alot of the logistics(less then they are currently). And the screen shots have the same resources ( which I can understand are a comprimise on system resources and programing time.)

I see very clever post on simple ways to tweek the logistics system and combat system to add realism.
And then I see post demamnding that things be easier.

The point I started back when is was Svea Rike. I loved the way the armies moved and the attention to detail. I love this company! ( I Know it is diffent but mostly the same people) And I think that they need to stop trying to compete with other War games, 4E games, and sims. And stick to what has made them the best! ATTENTION TO DETAIL AND REALISM. You guys are the best! That is why the other developers dont even bother trying to compete with you.

Flame over that if you want but I stand by it. If they end up in 5 years time making games like DOW and thier like then I will just play my old HOI2A, EU3IN, and VIC/REV. Becuase they rock!

 

[Sovereign]

Of course that they would have their own issues, that's the whole point. And it is exactly how it was working.

I'm not sure what you mean by:
The only way to win that particular game is not to play it.
Could you explain, please?

Ok, refresh your knowledge of Nazi ideology and then imagine putting POPs through that! The game mechanics would just get too moraly, politicaly and probably legaly ugly.

 

[Driggsd]

Ok, refresh your knowledge of Nazi ideology and then imagine putting POPs through that! The game mechanics would just get too moraly, politicaly and probably legaly ugly.

If they had a Vicky type model there would POP migration not the NO No stuff. Paradox is realy good about not letting that stuff into its games.

And as some one who has seen both mass graves and mass starvation I agree with Sovereign. I would not play a game from a developer that added something like that.

 

[wilcoxchar]

If they had a Vicky type model there would POP migration not the NO No stuff. Paradox is realy good about not letting that stuff into its games.

And as some one who has seen both mass graves and mass starvation I agree with Sovereign. I would not play a game from a developer that added something like that.

Well in Vicky, you already are playing a game that adds that, although unintentionally. Go read the threads about it in the Vicky forum.

 

[TheCrimsonMajor]

How was Hearts of Iron II "dumbed down"? The only other game in the series, Hearts of Iron I, was worse and in most cases simpler than HoI II. No Hearts of Iron game has ever featured food as a resource, rather they use supplies. This system works very well for me and many others, I see no reason to change it.

 

[mvsnconsolegene]

I'm no soldier (nor would I wish to be) but I do think the absense of food as a resource is a serious ommision in the HoI games (not just for civilians, but to supply the military as well). It could be argued that Consumer Goods and Supplies serve this purpose, but you need fertile geography to produce food as well, not just IC.

Not sure about the general point of Paradox dumbing down the HoI series either, but food wasn't a resource in HoI1 anyway, so...

Food should definately be a resources. You could argue that food is included in consumer goods and supplies, but that isn't quite realistic as food should be considered a resource almost as much as oil and metals.

Italy, for example, had cronic food shortages and this actually figured into their foreign policy.

Germany annexed a portion of Yugoslavia directly the Reich primarily because of excellent crops.

- MVSN

 

[Wulf145]

I think that so many people forget the old addages about how an army marches on its stomache, and such. The logistics and resources in HOI2 makes it easy to forget about some corners of the world, and also get rid of some of the driving imperitaves for trade and war. I think Paradox has done itself a diservice by over simplifying the resources and logics. If customers want a war only game then the whole panzer general series, DOW series, or Axis and Allies should be ok.

Paradox you have an amazingly loyal fan base and own your niche! By dumbing down your games to gain a little more in market share you are turning off your die hards. Also you are diluting what makes your games special. The realism and fact based historical accurate games. Your games cry out to historians, intelectuals, and millitary men. Because they are the best simulations out there! You do wonderful research and very thoughtful customenr support. Dont ruin this with trying to symplify every thing! Most of your fans crave the complexity and chanlenge of what you do!

Look at the substansive and well argued post you get about logistics and resources. The debates on armor and infantry by the men that have used these in war, and have lived the doctrine and matenance of such units. Not just watched a history chanel show about them. Your fans are also informed. Use the knowledge they share. And play to it! You have THE BEST HISTORICAL GAMES hands down! Dont sully or degrade yourselfs by making an inferior product! Please.

Thank You!
I agree totaly, you have my Vote on this

 

[Lloyien]

The Vic model works fine on its own; in Victoria. The best argument against it in HOI3 is just imagining trying to manage it while fighting a world war.

World wars emerge in Victoria, too, yet I've never had any trouble managing the economy while fighting them. Actually, it's not so difficult at all, unless you abhor slowing the game speed or using the dreaded Pause key.

Could just be me, though. Victoria was my first exposure to Paradox, so maybe I was conditioned to accept more than two or three resources as not being mind-bogglingly complex.

 

[Driggsd]

How was Hearts of Iron II "dumbed down"? The only other game in the series, Hearts of Iron I, was worse and in most cases simpler than HoI II. No Hearts of Iron game has ever featured food as a resource, rather they use supplies. This system works very well for me and many others, I see no reason to change it.

Actualy HOI 1 was a bit more complicated. Load it and play it again and see. Complicated dont mean better. But they way some in these forums are talking about "simplifying" everything. Is redicules!

In HOI1 what sort of resources were there? Could you assigne different untis different battle plans in the same attack? Such as over run to Armor? Did you have to pick the units to upgrade and refit?

The point is so many people are asking for a game like A&A with limmited resource and supply management, but plenty of warfare. Not what HOI or any of the Paradox titles are. And hopefuly they wont become that.

 

[juv95hrn]

Simplify the user interface to make in more user friendly is definately needed but putting things "under the hood" or "dumbing down" the game and letting players make fewer decisions is in my opinion a bad idea. There should be as many choices as is possible of what to do in the game but is shouldn't be a chore to do them like fx, sharing tech and sending spies in HOI2.

 

[Evie HJ]

The point you made in your opening post that players who simply want a wargame should go to other games is all nice and good in theory - and not something Paradox can offer in practice. They cannot make a game "for their fans", because at some point, if Paradox wants to stay alive, the game has to turn a profit. And while the 100 000 members of the Paradox forums might sound impressive, you have to keep in mind that most of them are not current "PAradox fans" - that 100 000 includes people who are here for just one game and couldn't care about the others, people who registered only to report a bug, people who have lost interest in Paradox games or don't have the time for gaming anymore...

As I said. Ultimately, Paradox has to turn a profit (if they want to eat), and that means making a game that will appeal to a (much) broader audience than just the people on these forums.


At that point, for every possible addition to the game, the question become "How much does this feature cost" and "How much is it likely to help the game be more popular" (ie, sell more). If a feature requires a lot of time and ressource to implement (one would assume the Vickynomics, for example, fits somewhere in this category), and isn't likely to be a big selling point (one would ALSO assume Vickynomics fits somewhere in this category - vicky has its fan, but they're few and far between, and most of the rest of the people who know of Vicky consider it an experiment in mind-numbing number management gone very, very wrong), then Paradox should avoid it like the plague.