A peasant insurrection magically solved all of my problems

[Mindel]

After launching a war against Mexico and immediately trying to ban slavery, I sparked the US civil war. I sided with the Confederacy and broke off from the US after a very expensive struggle. As a result, I found myself in default with no means to get out of it, an angry US neighbor in the north, multiple marginalized opposition groups, and an illegitimate government. Things were not looking very well.

Finally, fed up with being marginalized, the rural folk and the intelligentsia staged an insurrection and launched a diplomatic play. Seeing no means to win, I simply switched over to their side.

The previous government immediately backed down, and so I became a new Confederate States, with zero debt, a perfectly happy US neighbor, and 100% legitimacy because there were no opposition parties at all. All of my old sins were apparently instantly forgiven.

I then easily passed all of the liberalizing reforms I wanted, including banning slavery and racial segregatio, propertied women, etc. Along the way, I joined the French market and have been profiting quite well.

Somehow, it feels like something wasn't working as intended. Or maybe multiple things. I hope the game isn't supposed to be this easy.

 

[Secret Master]

the rural folk and the intelligentsia staged an insurrection

and so I became a new Confederate States, with zero debt

Not the first time something like this has happened, although the US should still not like you.

 

[FocusedHope]

AIUI in general it's a bit of a toss-up whether, when a revolution happens, the old government's obligations and relationships carry over to the new one. In this case, debt is money borrowed from and/or collateralized by your ownership pops, so if the rural folk and intelligentsia are the ones revolting, it makes sense that they'd just ignore all of it. Not that the game mechanic AIUI depends on that, but at least in this case it makes sense.

In other words I'm pretty sure this is something that happened in history at least once, and if it's historically plausible and the game does it, I'd call that WAI.

 

[brainiac1530]

Relevant link

 

[Zhetone]

AIUI in general it's a bit of a toss-up whether, when a revolution happens, the old government's obligations and relationships carry over to the new one. In this case, debt is money borrowed from and/or collateralized by your ownership pops, so if the rural folk and intelligentsia are the ones revolting, it makes sense that they'd just ignore all of it. Not that the game mechanic AIUI depends on that, but at least in this case it makes sense.

In other words I'm pretty sure this is something that happened in history at least once, and if it's historically plausible and the game does it, I'd call that WAI.

no, it's a very established principle of international law that changes in government do not change obligations of countries.

 

[FleetingRain]

Of course those nerds at the Intelligentsia would find a legal loophole not to pay their debts smh

 

[MatthewP]

no, it's a very established principle of international law that changes in government do not change obligations of countries.

It may be, but it is one that is often ignored by revolutionary governments. Both the Soviet Union and the current Chinese government refused to recognize the debts of their predecessors.

 

[Vernichtere]

It may be, but it is one that is often ignored by revolutionary governments. Both the Soviet Union and the current Chinese government refused to recognize the debts of their predecessors.

And then the new capitalis Russia recognized at least parts of it. They paid France.

 

[MatthewP]

And then the new capitalis Russia recognized at least parts of it. They paid France.

True. For max realism, the game could reintroduce debt if the revolution is undone later. But it seems like a reasonable simplification to just make the debt go away.

 

[Zhetone]

It may be, but it is one that is often ignored by revolutionary governments. Both the Soviet Union and the current Chinese government refused to recognize the debts of their predecessors.

repudiating debt is not the same thing as not having it. often you would be treated as a pariah, which the Soviets and Chinese definitely were

 

[MatthewP]

repudiating debt is not the same thing as not having it. often you would be treated as a pariah, which the Soviets and Chinese definitely were

It’s a complex subject, and you can certainly make a reasonable argument about real life definitions.

But the game represents debt in a fairly simple way. Given the way it’s represented, it is more correct for a communist revolution to wipe away its debt than to keep having it.

That said, I’d agree it should come with a diplomatic cost. And maybe should be an option for a new regime rather than being automatic. These seem like pretty low priorities as far as game reworks I’d like to see, but they’d be cool changes at some point.

 

[Gui10]

It may be, but it is one that is often ignored by revolutionary governments. Both the Soviet Union and the current Chinese government refused to recognize the debts of their predecessors.

It goes both ways, the US government refused to pay its debt to France after the revolution, arguing that their debt was to the French King, not to France itself.
(In reality it was far more complicated, the US struggled to pay and defaulted, then settled the debt with the help of private individuals buying the devaluated debt, and so on. I should really have done a bit more research before posting )

 

[Zhetone]

It’s a complex subject, and you can certainly make a reasonable argument about real life definitions.

But the game represents debt in a fairly simple way. Given the way it’s represented, it is more correct for a communist revolution to wipe away its debt than to keep having it.

That said, I’d agree it should come with a diplomatic cost. And maybe should be an option for a new regime rather than being automatic. These seem like pretty low priorities as far as game reworks I’d like to see, but they’d be cool changes at some point.

I feel like it could be similar to how going bankrupt worked in Victoria 2, where you can repudiate the debt and continue as if it never happened, but creditor nations should be entitled to also attack to reclaim the money they were owed

 

[FleetingRain]

All debt in the game is internal, however, so probably the pops who got scammed should radicalize.

 

[Sarmatian]

Well, you could argue that debt was to other IG, like capis and aristos, so the new government simply confiscated their wealth and threw them in jail, or shaved them French style.

Not far fetched at all. Quite plausible, actually.

There are consequences to revolutions, but the way current game works, you can really ignore them. If the game sets up proper alliance system that is actually reliable, losing a valuable ally/protector would be a major downfall after a revolution. Losing tributaries and prestige would be major drawback as well. Losing trade routes, free trade agreements etc...

Perhaps even a timed diplomatic penalty where foreign governments are less likely to sign anything with you, or even get a reduced infamy for waging war against you since your government is only considered "semi legitimate" during that time frame...