A(nother) humble attempt at making Espionage worth using

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Leylos

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Since the introduction of Influence costs for Operations, Espionage has become of questionable use (commonly referred to as a waste of influence).
There are many things people would rather spend their influence on, including Claims, Mega Structures, Vassal Negotations, Resolutions etc.
Why waste any of your limited influence on an Operation that at best has limited effect (assuming the game even tells you what effect it has) and at worst might fail alltogether?

I decided to have a look at these Espionage operations and to share my suggestions on how to improve them:

Gather Information

Current: R
equires the player to keep using it multiple times to get anything worth out of it. The best you can hope for is 15 intel, the worst is 5 intel or information on an intel category you might not even care about.

Change: For starters, remove the random intel category knowledge the operation gives you. People use this Operation (if at all) to gain intel, they don't want to roll a dice and hope they get the right thing. Secondly, the amount of Intel granted needs to be at least doubled, so something like 15-30 intel per use. If a player has to keep using it dozens of times to get anything out of it they will simply not use it and it goes back to being useless.

Spark Diplomatic Incident

Current:
The fact that this hits a random envoy and you have no clue what the actual effect is, makes most players wary to ever use this. Random effects are bad if there is no guaranteed effect that comes alongside them. No one wants to gamble their precious influence.

Change: I suggest that in addition to the above, that the target Empire gets a reduced Influence gain for X amount of time. That way you can actually undermine another Empire diplomatically rather than hope that the random effect did something.

Prepare Sleeper Cells

Current:
Was fine before the Influence change so this one simply needs more meat to it.

Change: More powerful Espionage requires giving the player Counter-Espionage options. I suggest that Sleeper Cells could fit this bill. Having an active Sleeper Cell in another Empire would increase the frequency of bad events (which can lead to discovery or failure) that Empire gets when its targetting you with Espionage.

Acquire Asset

Current:
Was also fine before the Influence change so this one likewise needs a bit more to make spending Influence worth it given that there is no guarantee you will get the right asset.

Change: After stage one of the operation, the player is given a choice between 3 different assets, allowing them to go for the assset they are actually interested in.

Extort Favors

Current:
60 Influence for 1-3 Favors is incredibly bad. There are so many easier ways to gain Favors, that no one in their right mind would use this operation.

Change: In addition to gainining Favors (3-5) the player also gets a decent quantity of energy credits from the target (based on the targets stockpile). Now you can use it to economically undermine your opponent.

Smear Campaign

Current:
60 Influence to hope and pray that the other empire actually believes the Smear Campaign, otherwise your influence went down the drain. Limiting the player to three targets is also bad. If I am starting a Smear Campaign, I have a target in mind already. It can't be that you will only find out after stage 1 whether the target you had in mind is even on the list.

Change: There needs to be a cost associated with not blaming another Empire for Spying on you. If you can just click it away, whats the point of it? Maybe this could cost a certain amount of influence. In addition the player needs full control over what empire they want to target with a Smear Campaign.

Steal Technology

Current:
Arguably the only one you might still want to use despite the influence cost. What it likewise suffers from is the lack of control and the utter randomness of it. Enjoy your +20% Food production tech, my dear Machine Empire!

Change: After stage 1 of the operation, the player is given a choice, whether they want to steal Physics, Engineering or Society Research.

Sabotage Starbase

Current:
Spend 100 Influence (and a ton of energy credits in upkeep) to destroy a single starbase module (no shipyards, sorry) worth 50 alloys. Just no.

Change: Remove the nonsensical shipyard restriction. Instead of only removing 1 module, the starbase loses half of its modules and is also damaged in the process.

Arm Privateers

Current:
180 influence is quite a lot for destroying a handful of mining stations and maybe (if you get lucky) interrupt some trade.

Change: The Privateers will, after cleaning up the system, attack other nearby systems of the Empire in question, creating additional pirate bases in the progress. If ignored for too long, a pirate base may spawn additional small pirate fleets that also start raiding.

Crisis Beacon

Current:
320 influence for an operation that you are left wondering what it will do (assuming the fleets don't get bugged). Given the risk that this operation carries, having one lousy crisis fleet target that empire is simply not worth it.

Change: Instead of having only one fleet target said Empire, the Empires homeworld becomes a beacon for 5-10 years. While the homeworld is a Beacon, the Crisis will always have at least 1 fleet target this homeworld, even if the previous one got destroyed.

I haven't tried the "Consume Star" operation, so I will have to skip it. One thing the game could use aswell are technologies to reduce the Influence cost of operations (just like we have technologies to reduce the cost of claims).


The last thing I want to bring up are additional operations the game could use. These are specifically for areas where Espionage makes sense but is missing for some reason.

Incite Unrest

The player is given the choice of 3 non-homeworld planets of the target Empire. The game will pick the planets with the lowest stability to appear here and the player is shown their current stability level before making a decision. If the operation is successful against that target it will suffer a loss of 10-20 stabilty for X amount of years. The more strongly your ethics are opposed to the target Empires ethics, the higher the chance for the stabilty loss to be larger. If a planet revolts as a result of this operation, you are given a choice of joining the war on the side of the rebels.

Assassinate Leader

After stage 1 the player is given 3 target choices to assassinate. The game will always pick one governor, one scientist and one admiral to choose from, preferring targets of a higher level. Instead of a governor the game may also randomly choose their ruler and instead of an Admiral the game may also randomly choose a General. When the operation is successful, the target either dies, is maimed (-40 years lifespan) or gains a negative trait limiting their effectiveness by a small amount.
 
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Cat_Fuzz

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Love these. Would make a few changes and additions:

Spark Diplomatic Incident: I think it should work where the event in question has an either / or effect. An example is the tampered translator, which if the target empire picks the ‘haha, what a funny guy’ result, is actually a net positive for the empire, so I think each choice should lead to the target empire receiving a negative, or the empire being implicated getting a negative, so for the above example, if the ‘comedy’ option is picked, the implicated empire gets an influence penalty.

Sabotage Starbase: I know some would disagree, but I quite like the idea of it completely wiping out a starbase, so with careful planning you could constructor snipe the enemy and takeover their empire. The empires claims would remain so doing this a lot will lead to friction, and the Intel / influence cost would justify it being this powerful.

Addition: Cultural Warfare
A low/mid-tier operation to shift the ethics of another empire closer to your own. I see it as a potential two-stage op, where it could start as a disinformation campaign that reduces stability, then introduces the ethics shift planetary modifiers on planets with low stability that bring them closer to your own. Would be useful to destabilise enemy empires, or to align federation members to be closer to your ethics (with the risk of being discovered potentially breaking up the federation.
 
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Merch991

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100% agree! As I've written in other posts, espionage is something that requires a lot of important choiches and resources (envoys, which are very limited, traditions, civics, APs, edicts and now, influence) and it would be fine for it to be way stronger than now. I've also made a wishlist of new operations


I would also add a submenu in the game settings which lets you remove single operations (so if someone doesn't like to see their leaders die or their planets going low stability they can simply remove these operations without deleting all espionage system)
 
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glee8e

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Consume star give rise to a situation on the target. If left unnoticed it'd ruin all habitable planets in the target empire's capital system (even if this is a binary or trinary system). I've never been on the receiving side so no idea how hard it'd be to cure the infestion though.
 
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Leylos

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Consume star give rise to a situation on the target. If left unnoticed it'd ruin all habitable planets in the target empire's capital system (even if this is a binary or trinary system). I've never been on the receiving side so no idea how hard it'd be to cure the infestion though.
Yeah I know the effect, but I have never tried it myself. It seems very easy to counter so it makes me wonder if there shouldn't be some effect that sticks around regardless like lowering the energy production in the system.
 

currylambchop

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I think more espionage should be like the consume star situation, enemy can counter but it has a big effect. For example, bio ascension and irassian could make a virus that starts a virus situation.
 

Eelectrica

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Steal the plans - Gives ship configuration and maybe a 10% damage boost in combat for 5 -10 years.

Need and anti colossus espionage op as well that maybe prevents a colossus from jump out or when attacked. After op is complete we can activate it within 30 years perhaps, but it's effect is good for 2 years maybe. Thinking of travel times and actually catching up to an enemy colossus.
 
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grommile

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This all feels, as usual, very "the darloks should be the most fun empire to play and never mind anyone else".
 
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Northernwwater

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Assassinate Leader

After stage 1 the player is given 3 target choices to assasinate. The game will always pick one governor, one scientist and one admiral to choose from, preferring targets of a higher level. Instead of a governor the game may also randomly choose their ruler and instead of an Admiral the game may also randomly choose a General. When the operation is successful, the target either dies, is maimed (-40 years lifespan) or gains a negative trait limiting their effectiveness by a small amount.
Excellent idea!!
 

SeraphAscending

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Love the suggestions, but one disagreement i have is the "after stage 1 choose X".
Have things like that be chosen at the beginning to avoid unnecessary popups. - And still have a "random" ("opportunistic") setting that reduces difficulty slightly.

Another minor disagreement is the "assassinate leader" operation, because i don't think it will likely improve the game as much as it is likely to annoy people. Democracies already constantly swap around leaders. More leader swapping micro will not be appreciated.

Another suggestion i would have is "Subversive Propaganda" that reduces governing ethics attraction depending on how well of a success you score. (so it wouldn't be a binary success/fail, but a -5% to -100% for example.)
Alternatively/Additionally, it could also increase attraction of ethics opposing governing ethics.
 
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Leylos

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This all feels, as usual, very "the darloks should be the most fun empire to play and never mind anyone else".
This is an argument that I often see from people about games featuring Espionage. They don't use Espionage themselves and thus everyone else is only allowed Espionage that at best does not affect them and at worst is useless.
 
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Leylos

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Love the suggestions, but one disagreement i have is the "after stage 1 choose X".
Have things like that be chosen at the beginning to avoid unnecessary popups. - And still have a "random" ("opportunistic") setting that reduces difficulty slightly.

Another minor disagreement is the "assassinate leader" operation, because i don't think it will likely improve the game as much as it is likely to annoy people. Democracies already constantly swap around leaders. More leader swapping micro will not be appreciated.
I can certainly see being given target choices right away an improvement.

For point 2, the operation would more often than not provide governors as targets rather than their ruler and the chance to outright kill them could be made lower compared to other targets. If the operation also has a delay between uses (~5 years) it becomes a nonissue.
 

grommile

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This is an argument that I often see from people about games featuring Espionage. They don't use Espionage themselves
Because the intersection of the sets "worth using" and "tolerable to be targeted by", where covert sabotage is concerned, is the empty set.
 
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Cat_Fuzz

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Because the intersection of the sets "worth using" and "tolerable to be targeted by", where covert sabotage is concerned, is the empty set.
True for the latter if espionage is spammable.

The whole point of moving to an influence cost is that, provided operations are buffed, it’s a strategic choice to use it, and in my view no different to being unprepared for a war dec from a conquering neighbour.
 
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SeraphAscending

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The whole point of moving to an influence cost is that, provided operations are buffed, it’s a strategic choice to use it, and in my view no different to being unprepared for a war dec from a conquering neighbour.
Technically correct, but there is still the fun factor.
Just having stuff blow up out of nowhere is very likely to upset many players, which is why even a too costly version of very powerful operations is still dangerous to player satisfaction.
Even if someone sacrificed half their potential fleet strength for a super powerful operation that just immediately makes a planet turn and essentially "be conquered", it would feel worse than having a war for the planet and losing that, because it's just a popup saying "it's gone now, you lost a battle you didn't even know you were fighting". That will still upset people, even if too costly for the reward.
 

grommile

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The whole point of moving to an influence cost is that, provided operations are buffed, it’s a strategic choice to use it, and in my view no different to being unprepared for a war dec from a conquering neighbour.
The empire that declares war on me is playing the same game as me.

The empire that blows up my starbase with a suitcase black hole generator, provokes a rebellion, or murders my emperor is not.
 
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Merch991

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This all feels, as usual, very "the darloks should be the most fun empire to play and never mind anyone else".
So let's introduce a submenu in game settings to remove those operations you don't like.

It's really unfair spending tons of influence, civic/ap/traditions slots, envoys etc etc for nothing. If espionage exists and there's the possibility to focus on it, it needs to be worthy. If you don't like some operations because you find them too annoying that's fine, but let me enable them if I want.

And the only solution to this is to be able to set it exactly as we can decide to enable/disable caravaneers, xeno compatibility, marauders etc etc
 
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Cat_Fuzz

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Technically correct, but there is still the fun factor.
Just having stuff blow up out of nowhere is very likely to upset many players, which is why even a too costly version of very powerful operations is still dangerous to player satisfaction.
Even if someone sacrificed half their potential fleet strength for a super powerful operation that just immediately makes a planet turn and essentially "be conquered", it would feel worse than having a war for the planet and losing that, because it's just a popup saying "it's gone now, you lost a battle you didn't even know you were fighting". That will still upset people, even if too costly for the reward.
Hardly.

The worst case scenarios based on the list given are:

• You lose some opinion with a friendly neighbour
• You forcibly give favours and some EC to a rival
• You potentially have an opinion change with a friendly neighbour
• You could lose / have a drastically diminished starbase (just 1)
• You could have an aggressive fleet appear in your territory (that actually requires a response)
• You could have to put up with some ethics shifting
• You could have a planet revolt

But again, these cost influence so this wouldn’t be happening every other game month, but on occasion, like once every decade or two.

EDIT: Would otherwise agree with you if the resource was still EC as you normally have several thousand of these at a time, so it would be spammable.
 
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Cat_Fuzz

General
May 10, 2016
1.772
2.365
The empire that declares war on me is playing the same game as me.

The empire that blows up my starbase with a suitcase black hole generator, provokes a rebellion, or murders my emperor is not.
Losing a starbase would likely happen during a war, and there’s nothing stopping you war decking to get it back.

Rebellion - subjugate or reclaim the planet - not a massively difficult thing to do.

Leaders and rulers die randomly after a set time - bringing that forward a few decades isn’t game breaking.
 
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