A Nazi Superweapon - the "Elektroboot"

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Jopa79

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SRH025-p40.jpg

A diagram of a XXI Type German U-Boot - the "Elektroboot". Type XXI reached a speed of 17 knots while submerged which was faster than Type VII U-Boots reached while running top speed at surface.

While the tide turned against Germany in the WWII the government directed renewed propaganda at its population. Claims had about new advanced weaponry and designs in development which would change the course of the war and favor again the Germans. The Nazi regime sold the idea of revolutionary technology soon arriving with a purpose to keep the people pushing for the war effort past the desperate moments as early as in 1942-1943 and after the heavy German defeats in North Africa, Stalingrad, Kursk, etc. In reality, to put advanced weapons still in the development phase into production takes a long time. However, some advanced designs and technology were hurried in production without a respect in quality assurance. A certain very prominent and promising design was the Type XXI U-Boot.

Elbe II was a German U-Boot pen in Hamburg during the WWII - a bunker and shelter for the U-Boots allowing the submarine maintaining, repairs and preparations in cover - a point of departure and return for the U-Boot patrols. In 1945 during the Allied occupation of Germany the British blew up Elbe II, but the construction only half-collapsed and was left as a pile of rubble for the decades to come. In 1985 three U-Boot historians were exploring the ruins of Elbe II and inside the half-collapsed concrete scrap they discovered three wrecks of Type XXI U-Boots of which two were in remarkable good condition despite the explosion and eaten by the time.

Type XXI U-Boot was the first submarine to operate primarily submerged rather than being a surface vessel. Increased battery power allowed Type XXI to run and spend several days submerged and the new supercharged diesel engines allowed reaching speeds which barely was reached at surface by the earlier German U-Boots. Also, snorkel allowed batteries to be recharged at periscope depth - no need to surface. The hull was a new design, as well the conning tower was streamlined allowing better rapidity. Stealth capabilities and silent running was increased while Type XXI was much more quiet than the predecessor types. XXI had improved diving-time, power-assisted torpedo reloading and improved crew accommodations. Still the design proved to be disappointing as having several mechanical failures and it was prone for combat damage. This was due to the Type XXI rushed into production too early without being properly tested neither the design model fully completed, further adding the construction of Type XXI-models were usually completed lower quality materials and with insufficient facilities. In total, 118 Type XIIs were constructed in Germany during 1943-1945 of which 4 were fully combat-fitted and 2 went on patrols, but never did any combat.

Regardless of all the shortcomings, several navies operated Type XXI U-Boots and basing on the design many nations introduced their own submarines during the post-war years.

Here's my question. Germany suffered of heavy casualties in the Battle of Atlantic - up to 75% of the total U-Boot crew in service throughout the war was eliminated, as well the German U-Boot fleet lost some 60% of its 1 500 vessels. Type VII U-Boot was the standard of the German navy - Type XXI was a "green fruit" and didn't affect for the outcome. But, what if Type XXI would had been running through the tests already earlier and would had been a reliable and a new standard of the U-Boot Flotilla Kriegsmarine? Appearing for the German side during the Battle of Atlantic with multiple Type XXI U-Boots in Wolfpacks and being mass-produced, could the "Elektroboot" make a response for the Allies in the Battle of Atlantic which in real was a decisive Allied victory?
 

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The problem with this 'what if', as with most of them, is that it does not account for human nature.

Doenitz's idea, if I have it right, was to conduct commerce raiding with large numbers of relatively inexpensive submarines which could spread out to intercept and concentrate to attack. The principle ideas there being 'large numbers' and 'inexpensive'.

The other side of that was to go for a smaller number of more capable and hopefully more survivable boats, like the XXI.

These are the usual positions of quantity and quality, and of course there are a lot of trade-off positions in-between. But as I understand it, Doenitz remained focused on getting larger and larger numbers of boats into the Atlantic, and as Allied ASW improved, and bombers and CVEs were deployed, he tried moving the hunting grounds and modifying existing boats (such as with snorkels and AA) instead of developing a new type.

For Germany to have shifted earlier from the VII to the XXI, something would have to have changed the minds of the U-Boat high command. If they had forseen what the closing of the Atlantic gap meant and moved rapidly from a 'mass' to a 'quality' strategy, then perhaps they could have gotten the XXI working and deployed in reasonable numbers in, what, 1944? That is really too late.

Or Doenitz could have had the foresight to see that he might need more than one string for his bow, and developed parallel projects... but I suspect Germany didn't have the resources to do both, and with Hitler forcing the war in 1939, perhaps Doenitz didn't see the need for more than a short-term surge in numbers?

I think, for the XXI to have a really profound effect on the war, you'd have to have them deployed in (maybe) 1942 and accept a shortfall of half or more of the VII production. With everyone predicting a short war and Doenitz focused on getting numbers up... well, by the time they knew they needed something different they didn't have time or production to make it.

Still, it was a beautiful boat and a real game-changer, post-war.
 
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Andre Bolkonsky

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The problem with this 'what if', as with most of them, is that it does not account for human nature.

Doenitz's idea, if I have it right, was to conduct commerce raiding with large numbers of relatively inexpensive submarines which could spread out to intercept and concentrate to attack. The principle ideas there being 'large numbers' and 'inexpensive'.

The other side of that was to go for a smaller number of more capable and hopefully more survivable boats, like the XXI.

These are the usual positions of quantity and quality, and of course there are a lot of trade-off positions in-between. But as I understand it, Doenitz remained focused on getting larger and larger numbers of boats into the Atlantic, and as Allied ASW improved, and bombers and CVEs were deployed, he tried moving the hunting grounds and modifying existing boats (such as with snorkels and AA) instead of developing a new type.

For Germany to have shifted earlier from the VII to the XXI, something would have to have changed the minds of the U-Boat high command. If they had forseen what the closing of the Atlantic gap meant and moved rapidly from a 'mass' to a 'quality' strategy, then perhaps they could have gotten the XXI working and deployed in reasonable numbers in, what, 1944? That is really too late.

Or Doenitz could have had the foresight to see that he might need more than one string for his bow, and developed parallel projects... but I suspect Germany didn't have the resources to do both, and with Hitler forcing the war in 1939, perhaps Doenitz didn't see the need for more than a short-term surge in numbers?

I think, for the XXI to have a really profound effect on the war, you'd have to have them deployed in (maybe) 1942 and accept a shortfall of half or more of the VII production. With everyone predicting a short war and Doenitz focused on getting numbers up... well, by the time they knew they needed something different they didn't have time or production to make it.

Still, it was a beautiful boat and a real game-changer, post-war.

Well said
 

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While I see how it would have been a game-changer against allied arial submarine hunters, it could still be countered with escort destroyers equipped with sonar and depth charges, or am I missing something?
 

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Not really. Also like most German "wunderwaffen" types it had some good and genuinely innovative ideas ... it also had a whole bunch of issues. To actually make it a winning weapon I'd say you'd have to have had the XXI and then some improved successor to it, and by then you are far into fantasy territory. And then focus at the very least all your naval expenditure on that. If not massive efforts from elsewhere too (so while you might now manage to sink more shipping Russian tanks are probably happily overrunning your lines).

Uboats weren't going to win WW2. US and UK shipbuilding and shipping capacity was so massive even a much better uboat and that somehow magically in larger numbers wouldn't have been enough.

Of course you can say that war is fought by humans and the Brits might have overestimated German capabilities so badly in some of the worst months that they'd have capitulated; I suppose it's hypothetically possible. But really only very hypothetical and then it wouldn't have all that much to do with what the uboats are actually capable of.
 
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Of course you can say that war is fought by humans and the Brits might have overestimated German capabilities so badly in some of the worst months that they'd have capitulated; I suppose it's hypothetically possible. But really only very hypothetical and then it wouldn't have all that much to do with what the uboats are actually capable of.

I often find it odd how people consider that Britain would have capitulated at the first sign of hardship. By the time the Western Allies had liberated Paris, the Urban population of Germany was living in a troglyditic state of ruined cities and severe caloric restriction. It took another year of slaughter, further starvation, pandemic and the total destruction of German way and occupation of Germany before they capitulated. Yet a few hardships in Britain will force their capitulation?
 
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The XXI was undoubtedly a fine ship with a number of technological evolutions ... it was not however a war winner. In my opinion the 'innovations' were not really 'innovations' but merely evolutions in technology. This is principally because they didn't overcome the principal challenges that faced the Germany Uboat capability.

In the first instance, the additional batteries, super-turbo-charged engine etc did make it more capable underwater but it wasn't sufficient to turn the tide. Taken in context, the 17Kt figure is only achievable for approximately 1 hour - to put that in context, at maximum speed it can only travel about 30Km and then it needs to surface to recharge. Its underwater cruise speed was still a very measly 5Kts. The idea that XXIs would be zipping around the ocean praying on convoys shooting and scooting is not realistic. Instead, they would be following the same tactics as their predecessers, albeit more capably. This still wont overcome the challenge of convoy based tactics and the aerial cover system that the allies had developed.

In the second instance, the hydraulic Torpedo loading is again a great evolution. It allows the U-Boat to fire all 23 of its torpedos in relatively quick succession. However, this doesn't overcome the challenge of Torpedo gunnery itself. The best German Torpedo of the war was probably the G7es which only had a hit rate of around 50% and was ideally launched within 1000m of the target. Furthermore, rapidly developed allied countermeasures (e.g. the Foxer Noise Maker) reduced this substantially. According to Wikipedia (citing Showell's Hitler's Navy: A Reference Guide to the Kriegsmarine 1935-1945) recorded that of 700 firings, only 77 ships were sunk. Not a great record. Using these numbers, you might consider that a 10 boat squadron carying a total of 230 Torpedos might be able to sink 23 ships ... yet in the 1943/44 period the allies were sailing with convoys of hundreds of ships (the largest being HX-300 with 166 I believe). The Germans would need to dedicate 72 U boats to effectively destroy this convoy.

The final major point is the streamlined hull. Yes, it reduces the likelihood of detection, but was not sufficient to overcome the layering system that the allies used to detect Uboats in the first place. This wasn't a single capability, but the layering of many - long range air power, escort carriers, passive/active ASDIC/SONAR, convoy pickets etc. While it reduced the detectability, it did not make the submarines stealthy.

So yes, a great technology demonstrator that was not developed to the point of being a viable product. Regardless, the capability innovations were insufficient to overcome the countermeasures that were already in place to defeat those innovations.
 
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The German military did create some really beautiful instruments of war. Many of them could be considered the pinnacle of engineering of their time.
Albeit all of them have one thing in common:
(1) Put too early in serial production/service
(2) Yet too late to turn the tide of war
(3) Too few in numbers

Be it the Type XXI U-Boat, the Pzkpwf V "Panther" or the Me 262 "Schwalbe".

All of these have in common that they are superior to their respective counterparts from other armed forces of their time. All of them are or were considered the transition between "late war" and "modern" equipment in their respective area. And many were "the first". The first submarine for long term operations while being submerged, the first (proto-)MBT, the first operational jet fighter.*

Yet all of them did often fail in service due to 1, failed to meet their expectations due to 3 (and 1) and fought an uphill battle due to 2 (and 3).

This, of course, is a very simplistic summary and many other factors should be considered.
However, with that being said...
But, what if Type XXI would had been running through the tests already earlier and would had been a reliable and a new standard of the U-Boot Flotilla Kriegsmarine? Appearing for the German side during the Battle of Atlantic with multiple Type XXI U-Boots in Wolfpacks and being mass-produced, could the "Elektroboot" make a response for the Allies in the Battle of Atlantic which in real was a decisive Allied victory?
The answer to that question is:
Yes, maybe. IF the same was possible for the Panther, the Schwalbe and many other weapon systems the German engineers developed.


*Please take that with LOTS of salt. I know it's far more complicated, complex and disputed.
 
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I often find it odd how people consider that Britain would have capitulated at the first sign of hardship. By the time the Western Allies had liberated Paris, the Urban population of Germany was living in a troglyditic state of ruined cities and severe caloric restriction. It took another year of slaughter, further starvation, pandemic and the total destruction of German way and occupation of Germany before they capitulated. Yet a few hardships in Britain will force their capitulation?

In the Inter-war period there was a great deal of speculation that air raids, with or without poison gas, would rapidly eradicate both cities and civilian will to continue the fight. This turned out not to be even remotely true, as evidenced by German resistance and by the difficulty the Emperor had in getting his own sworn officers to surrender even as every major city was reduced to ashes.

I have read opinions that the U-boat threat in WW2 was not as dire as in WW1, largely because the Allies started convoying early and devoted significant resources to fighting them. I do not know if that is true but it seems persuasive. I do think that, if circumstances had not brought the US into the war (or changed such as to permit serious US assistance short of war), then another year or two of 'going it alone' would have deeply damaged the British ability to conduct offensive operations.


Submarines do not need high underwater speed - it makes them easier to detect. The XXI's ability to remain submerged for a full day, even at a plodding 5 knots, would have made it very difficult for Allied forces to keep it suppressed.

The principle problem with torpedoes is that, even if the firing control computer is very good, at ranges greater than point-blank the environmental factors and estimates of range and speed multiply the errors past the point of hitting what you are aiming at. Add in evasive manuevering and the attacker's job is difficult indeed. What mostly solved the problem post-war was the development of self-guided and wire-guided torpedoes.
 

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The German military did create some really beautiful instruments of war. Many of them could be considered the pinnacle of engineering of their time.
Albeit all of them have one thing in common:
(1) Put too early in serial production/service
(2) Yet too late to turn the tide of war
(3) Too few in numbers

Be it the Type XXI U-Boat, the Pzkpwf V "Panther" or the Me 262 "Schwalbe".

All of these have in common that they are superior to their respective counterparts from other armed forces of their time. All of them are or were considered the transition between "late war" and "modern" equipment in their respective area. And many were "the first". The first submarine for long term operations while being submerged, the first (proto-)MBT, the first operational jet fighter.*

Yet all of them did often fail in service due to 1, failed to meat their expectations due to 3 (and 1) and fought an uphill battle due to 2 (and 3).

This, of course, is a very simplistic summary and many other factors should be considered.
However, with that being said...

The answer to that question is:
Yes, maybe. IF the same was possible for the Panther, the Schwalbe and many other weapon systems the German engineers developed.


*Please take that with LOTS of salt. I know it's far more complicated, complex and disputed.

And this is not a bug, but a WAD. Germany started the armament cycle earlier than the other powers, which gave them mature AFVs, mature all-metal air superiority fighters, mature submarines etc by 1940. Yet the very same stuff became obsolete, as bigger and newer Allied counterparts appeared (now way a Bf-109 from 1935 with original 1.2t empty weight is going to be competetive against a P-51 from 1940 with 3.5t weight). Thus Germany was forced to start the armament cycle again roughly around 1942. Which lead to the these half-cooked machines, which nevertheless arrived to late.
Note that the P-51, Sherman, etc all became obsolete after the war, just as the German machines.
 
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it could still be countered with escort destroyers equipped with sonar and depth charges, or am I missing something?

Yes, if detected, the Type XXI was very vulnerable to depth charges - this was due to the manufacturing problems which rendered in poor structural integrity. But my question suggested that if the Type XXI had completed testing and design working and not rushed into production as unfinished.

However, the Type XII was very hard to detect while submerged as being much more quiet that the earlier U-Boots. XIIs were also equipped with a creep motor, particularly used when silent running was necessary. Furthermore, the ability to run at much higher speed than its predecessors while submerged made the Type XII much more difficult to pursue and destroy for the Allied escort vessels.

Also, one certain feature and its effect during convoy attacks remained unproven - the Type XII's ability to "sprint" while submerged. The older U-Boots had first to surface and only after that they could reach full speed and "sprint" during a convoy attack - this often revealed the position of the submarine to the enemy. The Type XII was capable of reaching nearly 20 knots while submerged and it could position itself for the attack at full speed underwater and continue by "sprinting" the attack while submerged.
 

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I've read an article that indicated that part of Italy's WW2 woes was due to exactly this: they re-armed earlier than Germany (early 30s I think) and then didn't have the money or resources to re-equip when war broke out and so fought WW2 with obsolete equipment. The US was able to keep the new equipment coming (B-29s, 'Midway' class carriers, etc) but even the US was forced to keep using some old models. The Sherman is an example - it was a superior tank in 1942 and under-par in 1944, but using a bigger and better tank would have meant not having many or reworking the entire trans-Atlantic transport chain,
 
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To actually make it a winning weapon I'd say you'd have to have had the XXI and then some improved successor to it, and by then you are far into fantasy territory.

Well, not necessarily successor needed. This example of my is not about submarines, but making something a winning weapon.

Early fire correction circle was a device constructed of plywood and transparent plastic. It was used calculating targeting values for non-linear artillery and mortars. Having a correction circle the artillery observer is able to report the necessary fire corrections to the unit firing without knowing where the unit is firing.

Using fire correction circle during the Battle of Tali-Ihantala the Finns were able to focus 250 guns and their fire on targets inside 7km2. Fire correction circle was a winning weapon or winning technology in Tali-Ihantala.

Working as an artillery observer hasn't changed after introducing the fire correction circle neither has the principles of a fire correction circle.

Fire_correction_circle (1).JPG

A WWII era fire correction circle.
 

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The Sherman is an example - it was a superior tank in 1942 and under-par in 1944, but using a bigger and better tank would have meant not having many or reworking the entire trans-Atlantic transport chain,
By 1944, even though the M4 Sherman was showing its age, there was no major need to introduce a replacement because Germany was no longer capable of producing sufficient armored vehicles to be a major threat. US AT guns, tank destroyers, and ground-attack aircraft were quite capable of dealing with the few that Germany could build. A replacement program was put in place, but it was not given priority. Besides, the M4A3E8 in 1945 was already a very different animal than the M4A1 in 1942, even though they shared many of the same components for logistical and maintenance reasons.
 
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Some additional U-Boot questions, some of them rather simple ones, still I keep wondering all of them:
  • Calculating and doing the math for a torpedo attack - it’s easy to pause a game and do the geometry on the computer screen, but on which pad captain or officers drew their lines and angles?
  • The periscope - on which phenomenon the image of a ”ghost ship” appearing on the periscope glass is based on?
  • Torpedo Data Computer - how does this thing work? Manually input the critical values, flip the swich and you just get the correct answer or what?
  • Spanish attitude - allowing resupplying of U-Boots in a few Spanish ports, what if Spain captured Gibraltar? Allowing also German U-Boots entering in the Mediterranean, would this had changed the course of war in the North Africa?
  • Environment aspect - in total thousands of ships and vessels sank at the oceans worldwide during the WWII. I really can’t imagine the amount of oli, fuel, petroleum which ended up the sea from the ships sunk, but it should be a lot. Didn’t this have any affect for the environment?
 

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The problem with this 'what if', as with most of them, is that it does not account for human nature.

Doenitz's idea, if I have it right, was to conduct commerce raiding with large numbers of relatively inexpensive submarines which could spread out to intercept and concentrate to attack. The principle ideas there being 'large numbers' and 'inexpensive'.

The other side of that was to go for a smaller number of more capable and hopefully more survivable boats, like the XXI.

These are the usual positions of quantity and quality, and of course there are a lot of trade-off positions in-between. But as I understand it, Doenitz remained focused on getting larger and larger numbers of boats into the Atlantic, and as Allied ASW improved, and bombers and CVEs were deployed, he tried moving the hunting grounds and modifying existing boats (such as with snorkels and AA) instead of developing a new type.

For Germany to have shifted earlier from the VII to the XXI, something would have to have changed the minds of the U-Boat high command. If they had forseen what the closing of the Atlantic gap meant and moved rapidly from a 'mass' to a 'quality' strategy, then perhaps they could have gotten the XXI working and deployed in reasonable numbers in, what, 1944? That is really too late.

Or Doenitz could have had the foresight to see that he might need more than one string for his bow, and developed parallel projects... but I suspect Germany didn't have the resources to do both, and with Hitler forcing the war in 1939, perhaps Doenitz didn't see the need for more than a short-term surge in numbers?

I think, for the XXI to have a really profound effect on the war, you'd have to have them deployed in (maybe) 1942 and accept a shortfall of half or more of the VII production. With everyone predicting a short war and Doenitz focused on getting numbers up... well, by the time they knew they needed something different they didn't have time or production to make it.

Still, it was a beautiful boat and a real game-changer, post-war.
IRL the Uboats sunk 14.5 million GRT.
Judging by my google search results; the total shipping number the 14.5 million is supposed to be subtracted from doesn't exist, but I suspect there is no possible combination of quantity and quality that could grind down the allied merchant marine like their plan called for. It looks like they never came close either. They would have needed a different, probably also doomed, plan altogether.
 
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By 1944, even though the M4 Sherman was showing its age, there was no major need to introduce a replacement because Germany was no longer capable of producing sufficient armored vehicles to be a major threat. US AT guns, tank destroyers, and ground-attack aircraft were quite capable of dealing with the few that Germany could build. A replacement program was put in place, but it was not given priority. Besides, the M4A3E8 in 1945 was already a very different animal than the M4A1 in 1942, even though they shared many of the same components for logistical and maintenance reasons.
Considering US tank doctrine the performance of the Sherman vs German tanks is mostly irrelevant. What is relevant is its performance vs German standard anti tank measures.
 
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the Pzkpwf V "Panther"

While I generally agree with you I despite popular belief think that the Panther was a horrible tank and a failed design.
Most Allied/German/Soviet mid war designs been soso but the only positive thing I can say about the Panther is its gun but even here the optics had troubles.
I mean this thingie created the need to continue producing the tanks it was supposed to replace. Germany lost that tank design race midwars, you can see that when you compare late war tanks you have a Centurion, Pershing, T44 and the somewhat later showing up T-54.
Comparable German late war tanks been crapshots in comparison to these tanks.

German Tank destroyers remained competetive tho, even top notch while one can argue alot pro and con about the Jagdtiger.
 
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@Kovax - Opinions as to whether the Sherman needed replacement varied, pretty much by rank. Higher echelons agreed that it would do the job for as long as the war was expected to last; the troops on the ground, however, strongly disagreed. Opinions were almost irrelevant in the face of two facts: the US did not have a working model replacement ready to go, and transport capacity could handle (I think I remember) four or five Shermans to two of the proposed replacement.

And you are exactly right: the Sherman was capable of being improved, and was steadily improved to the end of the war. As much maligned as it sometimes was, it was 'good enough'.

@Graf Zeppelin - I agree, but I would expand on that. What became relevant was that, if it took 5 Shermans to kill a German tank, the Allies had five Shermans, in the field, fueled, armed and repaired. All of the Allied armies learned about AT weapons in a very hard German-speaking school. The lessons were expensive and painful, but they did learn. British, Soviet, American and German doctrines are very different - but properly used and supported, they all work.

@Jopa79 - the fire control computers in US subs were among the most complex analog computers ever built. I don't have information on other navies but I assume the German and British fire control computers were very good. Variables were entered - often by expert guesswork - and handles were cranked to produce a continually updated solution as the sub readied its firing. Usually the Exec ran the FC plot while the Captain ran the periscope. The more correct data points they could get, the better the solution and the greater the risk of detection.

Spain was approached by Germany on the subject of an alliance and the capture of Gibraltar was discussed. Franco reeled off a massive list of resources he would need if he cut relations with the Allies and the idea was abandoned. It's another of those ideas that look great until you factor in logistics. And then, too, the Spanish Army was a lot worse off than even the Italian, so the value of a Spanish Axis is questionable.

As far as environmental impact... it was negligible. The oceans are incredibly vast...
 
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  • The periscope - on which phenomenon the image of a ”ghost ship” appearing on the periscope glass is based on

About that: it is the same principle how your "night mirror" works on your car. An interface of two transparent material works as a kind of a mirror, the amount of the reflected light can be calculated if the refractive index of the materials is known.
This was all known and by the time of WW2 they could already produce anti-reflection layers:

Now submarines has a problem that they operate in a nasty environment, which even today is quite demanding for optical coatings (indeed there is an ISO test for it)

So (and up to know it is guesswork) they could not really use very advanced opics for subs.
 
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