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Spain: Probably, I think. It would probably have lost northern spain as an annexation to France.

Oh really and more you suggest a sattalite and would the French have wanted it .Remember French losses in Spain were HUGE in total greater than the Russian debacle...and in Spains case these were nearly all French troops not allied forces.Furthur losses were not the result of the British Army or even the Spanish army for that matter.But a relentless continous partisan war that never abated or halted.Though at times the Spanish establishment accepted the Napoleanic system the people of Spain didnt.And that showed no signs of changing..so would france really continue to desire this *spanish Ulcer* could they even afford it.They controlled the Cities outside and at night the French army moved in fear.
Napolean was never able to fully subdue Royalist areas of France even at the height of his power never mind foreign areas.
Though the Battles of Smolensk and Borodino etc are Grand spectacles in the Russian campaign.Again the continous harassing of patrols supply lines by Cossacks and other irregulars can be shown to have as great effect on Napoleans defeat as his less than capable management.

if you give Spain to France do trust the attrition rates are suitably huge.
 

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Originally posted by Ichabod
What timeline are you talking about? I think we had 3 a few months ago or whenever, and now one more curtousy of Elias.

I doubt in whatever timeline, taht Russia would be too happy about an Austria Balkans

I found the earlier one more plausible, and I agree on Russia. But Napoleon wouldn't mind an austro-russian cold war,
 

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Originally posted by Barnacle Bill
Well, the Brits sent 942,135 to die in Flanders' Fields a century later.

OK, that was British military dead total in WWI, but I'd be willing to bet over 500,000 got it on the Western Front.

Gee, you're right. a war to defend Europe from German hegemony in general and Belgium in particular is totally comparable to an invasion of russia and the continental system.

Originally posted by Barnacle Bill
[BI agree with you that Britain was not a tyranny comparable to the typical continental power in the Napoleonic age, but military matters and affairs of state are not really the measure. Then again, IIRC Britain had a ways to go yet in 1815 towards liberalization of its legal system (so one didn't get transported for petty theft, for example). [/B]

But it was still ahead of Napoleon's empire.
 

Faeelin

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Originally posted by Caliagstro
Oh really and more you suggest a sattalite and would the French have wanted it .Remember French losses in Spain were HUGE in total greater than the Russian debacle...and in Spains case these were nearly all French troops not allied forces.Furthur losses were not the result of the British Army or even the Spanish army for that matter.But a relentless continous partisan war that never abated or halted.Though at times the Spanish establishment accepted the Napoleanic system the pe.

Note that Napoleon could handle partisans as long as they didn't have outside help.

I.E. the British army
 

Faeelin

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I prefer the earlier timeline, myself.
 

unmerged(2997)

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Note that Napoleon could handle partisans as long as they didn't have outside help.

If that is true and there is no evidence it was true..simple question why didnt he??
And the point of the British Army doesnt hold.The British army was mainly stuck in Portugal and mainly behind the lines of Torres Vedras.The partisan warfare was all over Spain and Napoleon displayed an ineptitude in handling it.
Neither was he able to handle the partisan activities within his own country in the Vendee and other areas which continued throughout the period.So again the statement is a bit of an emptry phrase..if he could why didnt he?.
There is a certain mythology of Napolean that has developed after his death for certain reasons.A canonisation and deification similar to that around Kennedy after his death.From a not so popular or even succesfull President(percentage poll in election was lowest...very few reforms bills passed)to an icon which says he was great and everyone loved him.
Naploean had his plus point but there were plenty of minus points too...and one of these was he certainly had no ability in dealing with Partisan activities.
 

Elias Tarfarius

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Ok, lets set a start date and go from there. We all basicly agree on a timeline for Napoleon so choosing a start date will make every thing else fall into place. I would suggest either late 1812 or 1835 (the year the Austrian Emperor Francis died).

BTW - Have Vicky and lovin' it, except for Russia beating the shiite out of me in the WWI scenario :( . I'll look at writing up some events shortly.
 

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as an addendum it wasnt only Spain where revolts occured against Napolean he was far from loved and his responses led to more resistance..take for example his order when
Hesse revolted.
The ruthlessness of Napoleon towards conquered peoples is well documented. When he received news of an insignificant revolt in Hesse, he wrote to the commander-in-chief in January 1807:
"My intention is that the main village where the insurrection started shall be burnt and that thirty of the ringleaders shall be shot; an impressive example is needed to contain the hatred of the peasantry and of that soldiery. If you have not yet made an example, let there be one without delay […] Let not the month pass without the principal village, borough or small town which gave the signal for the insurrection being burned, and a large number of individuals being shot […] Traces must be left in the cantons which have rebelled." (P. Geyl, p. 161.)

the partisan war cost Napolean over 300000 men in Spain alone a loss of on average 50000 men a year.The great leader wasnt so grat at times it seems.
 

Ichabod

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Elias, I don't know how far back in the thread you read (I do not think you were around for the first round of Napoleonic debates a few months ago), but I prefer a scenario I documented early in the thread about Napoleon accepting the conditions offered to him after the battle of Leipzig.

Caliagstro, what is there a man greater than Napoleon who could control the people if they decide to revolt?
 

Elias Tarfarius

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I prefer a scenario I documented early in the thread about Napoleon accepting the conditions offered to him after the battle of Leipzig.

This seem like an even better option.
 

ptan54

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I would be interested in helping on this mod once I'm done with The Great War (expect January at the earliest).

Although I personally would prefer to fight the Napoleonic wars myself from 1793, technological problems (?) would make that a hard scenario to implement, unless we sleep all the techs.

Could you elaborate on the terms offered after Leipzig?
 

Ichabod

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I outlined what would happen to fill the void between 1813 and 1836 in my earlier posts in the first page or two, but pretty much after the battle of Leipzig, the allies offered Napoleon the chance to keep his throne, as well as French land (that is, all land west of the Rhine and the Alps) if he would return the rest of Europe to the pre-revolutionary rulers. He still had decent chances of repelling the invaders (he thought) so he declined :(, not that I can really blame him...
 

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After that debacle in Russia and the ever growing Spanish ulcer, he still believed in his star....even on the soggy fields of Waterloo.....the man was great, but just didnt know when to stop. Perhaps St Helena was really the only option left, since he'd always dream of a Nth comeback.
 

Ichabod

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But, when you really look at it, in all possiblility, he could have raised an army to defeat the allies in 1814; he could have won the battle of Waterloo, just because he did not does not mean it was not possible, much less in the eyes of the people of the time.
 

ptan54

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Yes but the point is Britain was never going to stop waging war until Napoleon either ceased to be Emperor, or France gave up all naval aspirations and allowed for an independent Belgium (control of channel ports dispersed).

So what if Napoleon wins in 1814 or 1815? He buys himself more time, but there will be a 8th coalition, 9th, 10th........15th........20th nonstop against France. Winning Waterloo changes nothing, when the odds against you, the laws of probability dictate you must eventually lose.

The only way out is to sue for peace acceptable to Britain also - giving up all colonies, downsizing French navy, independent Belgium being minimums for the Brits I'd imagine.
 

Faeelin

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Originally posted by ptan54
The only way out is to sue for peace acceptable to Britain also - giving up all colonies, downsizing French navy, independent Belgium being minimums for the Brits I'd imagine.

Hah. Britain, contrary to what the vast majority of Britons were taught, did not just passively sit out the war, supreme in its confidence. It was going bankrupt. If Nappy was stronger, it would have had no choice.
 

Elias Tarfarius

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Yes but the point is Britain was never going to stop waging war until Napoleon either ceased to be Emperor, or France gave up all naval aspirations and allowed for an independent Belgium (control of channel ports dispersed).

Britain had been fighting almost constant wars since 1776 and need to rest. Brtain had nothing when she had no continental ally. Napoleon could once and for all silence Russia and Austria, peace with Brtain without any concessions (other than lossing the east indies) would have been more than possible in 1813.

So what if Napoleon wins in 1814 or 1815? He buys himself more time, but there will be a 8th coalition, 9th, 10th........15th........20th nonstop against France. Winning Waterloo changes nothing, when the odds against you, the laws of probability dictate you must eventually lose.

This is one of the great things about this scenario. How would France fair against a 8th coalition, etc. If Russia marches in to Germany, would the Allies turn on them and perhaps call on Napoleon for aid, seeing him now as the lesser of two evils. France could loss, but I like to be optimistic.
 

ptan54

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But France was very dependent on British imports right? The French army's coats and boots were made in Britain!

I do admit I've been served a very biased version of the Napoleonic wars, and lately I've suddenly taken an interest in the period again, and have in the space of two weeks changed from Napoleon hater to Napoleon admirer....any further enlightenment or suggestions on tomes to read is greatly appreciated.
 

Elias Tarfarius

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But France was very dependent on British imports right? The French army's coats and boots were made in Britain!

This is true and this was one of the many problems with the Continental System. No nation in Europe or all the world had the industrial ability Britain had in the first half of the 19th century. So everybody depended on British trade. This changed in the 1860's and 1870 with the rise of Germany and the rise of American industry (which broke the sout out of the British world economy during the Civil War).

After an 1813 peace, in order to end this dependance on British goods, Napoleon would poor tons of state funds into industrializing the Empire, particularly for military needs.

As to books, I suggest "The Napoleonic Wars" by Gunther Rothenburg and "the Age of Napoleon" by J. Christopher Herold. I don't care too much for Alan Schom but his book is very detailed "Napoleon Bonaparte"