A Napoleon Victorious Scenario

[unmerged(2567)]

Originally posted by Pokka
No, there are still China, USA, Ottomans, Japan, Egypt...blah blah blah

You will forgive my skepticism that it would be much more than academic for Napoleon to take over the rest of the world after he took over Europe. The Ottomans surely won't put up a better fight than Austria and Russia.

Such a scenario, however, would be interesting in playing against Napoleon, or who succeds him. In fact, it would make an interesting premise to have his empire falling apart after his death like Alexander's.

 

[unmerged(14338)]

Originally posted by Napoleon_VI
You will forgive my skepticism that it would be much more than academic for Napoleon to take over the rest of the world after he took over Europe. The Ottomans surely won't put up a better fight than Austria and Russia.

Such a scenario, however, would be interesting in playing against Napoleon, or who succeds him. In fact, it would make an interesting premise to have his empire falling apart after his death like Alexander's.

Exactly. Maybee, as you said, he would split his lands among his Generals and sons, that would be kinda cool. Creating some absurd kingdoms

 

[Derek Pullem]

If you read a book called the "Napoleon Options" it has some interesting "what-if" scenarios for post Napoleonic Europe.

One of the more fun ones is one based on Napoleon successfully retreating about a quarter of his army out of Russia and defeating the Russians again on the borders of Poland. It is the Russian Army, not Napoleon that ends up decimated and frozen in the field. Russia then falls apart in a wave of revolutions leaving Austria to occupy much of the Ukraine and a much larger Poland.

Napoleon dies in the 1820's and his son maries an Austrian princess to leave an Austro-French co-dominion of Europe. Prussia got partioned by Saxony, Poland and Austria after an anti Franch revolution. UK loses in Spain in 1820's as France pulls out but continues supporting the liberals against the monarchists.

The Spanish monarchy does a Portugal and retires to Mexico where it stabilises the state and ends up controlling all of the US West (including California) and South West and keeps it in the war vs. USA

Now thats a scenario to savour in the 1830's

 

[Faeelin]

How about the republic of Westfalen, in northern germany, taking up the banner of unication after driving out jerome?

Latin America trying to break the yoke of French rule? German settlers in Australia rising up against their overlords! Eugene's Italy trying to keep the peace in europe by being a firm ally of the empire?

A revanchist russia going after the ukraine?

 

[Faeelin]

Originally posted by Derek Pullem
One of the more fun ones is one based on Napoleon successfully retreating about a quarter of his army out of Russia and defeating the Russians again on the borders of Poland. It is the Russian Army, not Napoleon that ends up decimated and frozen in the field. Russia then falls apart in a wave of revolutions leaving Austria to occupy much of the Ukraine and a much larger Poland.

Where's the evidence that russia would collapse?

Originally posted by Derek Pullem
Napoleon dies in the 1820's and his son maries an Austrian princess to leave an Austro-French co-dominion of Europe.

Ah, if only Bonaparte had married an Austrian. Would that have meant they wouldn't join the last coalition against him?

Originally posted by Derek Pullem
Prussia got partioned by Saxony, Poland and Austria after an anti Franch revolution. UK loses in Spain in 1820's as France pulls out but continues supporting the liberals against the monarchists.

I still say we need a revolutionary republic of westfalen.

Originally posted by Derek Pullem
The Spanish monarchy does a Portugal and retires to Mexico where it stabilises the state and ends up controlling all of the US West (including California) and South West and keeps it in the war vs. USA

The monarchy was trapped in France. Not a chance.

 

[Derek Pullem]

Originally posted by Faeelin
Where's the evidence that russia would collapse?



Ah, if only Bonaparte had married an Austrian. Would that have meant they wouldn't join the last coalition against him?



I still say we need a revolutionary republic of westfalen.



The monarchy was trapped in France. Not a chance.

I was refering to an article in a book of "What Ifs". Considering that there is a "Years of Rice and Salt" scenario mod for EU2 which postulates the entire depopulation of the West through plague I think that these minor inconsistencies are emminently overlookable.

But to risk this being consigned to the History Forum

1. Russia has always had the possibility to implode into internal rebellion from the time of troubles all the way up to the revolutions in the early 20th century by way of various cossack uprisings.

2. Austria did stay out of the coalition until after the 1813 armistice and could well not have joined in at all if France had not been so weakened by the debacle in Russia. Take away the disintergration of the French Grande Armee and add the prospect of easy pickings in the Ukraine and why wouldn't Austria stay by France.

3. All the Spanish monarchy was trapped in France? Surely there could have been a few figureheads that the British could find to replace the French held (or maybe executed if the French were supporting the Spanish liberals) royal family.

Anyway - it was a bit of fun not a serious historical dissertation.

 

[Faeelin]

Could one of the mods bump up the old thread on a napoleon scenario?

 

[Syt]

Originally posted by Faeelin
Could one of the mods bump up the old thread on a napoleon scenario?

Better yet, let's merge it.

 

[unmerged(2567)]

Originally posted by Derek Pullem
The Spanish monarchy does a Portugal and retires to Mexico where it stabilises the state and ends up controlling all of the US West (including California) and South West and keeps it in the war vs. USA

The original revolts in the new world were in support of Ferdinand VII, who was proclaimed king for a short while after Napoleon dismissed Carlos. The juntas that appeared both in Spain and the Americas had as much legitimacy as needed.

And as for the Spanish liberals...the Constitution of 1812 was pretty liberal. It made Ferdinand a puppet.

And I'm unaware that Ferdinand was under lock and key in France. I thought he was able to sign that Constitution in Cadiz...?

 

[Syt]

Moved by request.

 

[Faeelin]

But wasn't that constitution revoked?

 

[unmerged(2567)]

Originally posted by Faeelin
But wasn't that constitution revoked?

Yeah, but we were talking alternate history if I recall this discussion well enough. The constitution wasn't revoked until 1822 or so (1824 maybe? I don't remember offhand) at which point the real revolts in the Americas began, based on the same juntas that had put Ferdinand back on the throne.

As far as the Napoleon Victorious scenario goes, I still think the splintering idea would be good.

The question really, though, is how far Napoleon has come in this fantasy. Has he conquered the world, beaten Russia, taken Britain, or has he merely retired to Poland and cut his losses after the 1812 campaign?

I think that this would be an interesting timeline:

1812: Napoleon gets out better and keeps most of his forces. The Russians are in no position to stage a strong invasion of Napoleon's empire

1815-20 (or so): Napoleon defeats British forces in Spain decisively, and accompanies this with a renewed naval offensive.

1824: Napoleon signs a treaty ending the conflict with Russia greatly reduced, Britain losing certain colonies (I'm not sure how this could be realistically explained...)

1835: Napoleon dies, and the empire falls apart.

This timeline leaves certain traditional powers (Russia, England, Sweden) in existence to prey on the collapsing Napoleonic states.

 

[Faeelin]

Actually, I'm partial to greater british invasions of latin america after successfully taking buenos aires, which causes them to get caught with their pants down when spain falls. A peace of exhaustion in 1811 sees france with the continent, britain with puppets in latin america and formal possession of chile and argentina, and russia in the east.

Your idea works too, though.

 

[KINGBEN]

If Britian and Russia hadn't fought against France.

I think there should be a greater France with modern day France(obviuosly enough) the low countries,the Rhineland,Catalonia,north Italy and with puppets being, Spain-Portugal,Denmark,Some states set up in germany,a smaller weaker austria,poland,naples,kingdom of italy etc and some other puppets in the Balkans.
Russia would have took finland and parts of asia, maybe part of ottoman empire.
Britain would have the United States, loada India,East Indies,African colonies in cape colony,west africa,egypt, possibly argentina or part of it and puppets in many latin american states.
Mexico would be ruled by the Spanish Royal family and Brazil by the portuguese, also the dutch may be in an island in the west indies

 

[Morpheus506]

Why do you say that Britain would have the USA? Wouldn't we have stayed independent? Or do you mean as a puppet state? (still unrealistic )

 

[Ichabod]

I think if Britian had allied itself with Napoleon, besides the world generally being a better place , Britian would be more than capable of recapturing their american colonies, they were able to burn your capitol while fighting off Napoleon, I don't see any reason why they wouldn't be able to occupy you with a neutral France at least or with the aid of French troops at most. Russia would definatly have taken major parts of the Balkans, probably the Slavic parts going to Russia with a Greek puppet controling Greece (including Constantinople if it doesn't go to the Russians), western Anatolia, and Albania. Finally, I think the Dutch would probably have thrown in the towel (I believe that is the proper metaphore), their colonies were just too far away to be a refuge, too uneuropean too.

 

[KINGBEN]

Ha, ha ,he, he, woohoo someone actually agread with me.

 

[KINGBEN]

Someone please start this mod, i'd be happy to help.

 

[Faeelin]

Originally posted by KINGBEN
Someone please start this mod, i'd be happy to help.

Anyone else interested?

 

[Elias Tarfarius]

Napoleon's Euorpe

I would be happy to help out with making up events and any other historical reference work. I consider myself good at thinking up alternate historic paths. I meant to post this one eariler, but I came out with what I think would be the most likely (and realistic way) an Napoleonic Empire would exist by 1835 and how it would look at that time. (I started in 1813 because Napoleon had learn valable lessons from the Russian war. He was now back in his true fighting form as during the Italian and 1805 campaigns.)

1813
Napoleon, with Davout as 2nd in command (instead of the ninny Ney), defeats the Allies - Bautzeb 20 May. In the autunm, the Prussian and Russian armies are destroyed in detail, the Austrians flee to Bohemia.
1814
The Spring sees the nation of Prussia collaspe with Marshal Blucher and Fredrick William being sent to the Bastille for safe keeping. East Prussia is ceded to the Duchy of Warsaw. Russia again makes peace with Napoleon while rebuilding its shattered armies. They are giving the right to protect all Orthodox and Slavs in the Ottoman Empire. Austria also surrenders, having already faced one too many invasions by Napoleon. Bohemia is ceded to the French, but it is released to become yet another puppet state (The Republic of Prauge?) Soon Napoleon personally returns to Spain with his veterens from Germany - Toulouse 10 April, 2nd Viltora. By winter, the Eagle has driven Wellington back to Lisbon, while the lasts of the juntas are put down ruthlessly. Across the pond, the American invasion of Canada is scessful due to lack of British reenforcements. All of Upper Canada is soon occupied.
1815
With the Spring, Napoleon leads his armies into Portugal. Wellington is forced to evacuate or face certain annihilation.
The Treaty of Ghent - Upper Canada is ceded to the US. The Treaty of the Hauge - Britain promises to never again interfere in European politics. Sugar islands in the Carribean are returned and Portugal is recognized as part of Napoleonic Europe (maybe made into a republic or a duchy rather than another kingdom).
Later in the Summer, Spanish and Imperial troops are shipped off to reconquer the colonies in rebellion. Britian sends money and "advisors" to Bolivar, San Martin, O'Higgins, etc.
1815-1820
Just to recap - Prussia no long exists (the irony), Austria is allied to France, Russia is allied but rebuilding its forces and economy, Britain is isolated and is focused on Latin America, the German Confederation remains loyal to the Emperor since the war's end, Poland and Bohemia are devoted vassals. Meanwhile, Franch races to catch up with Britain's industrialization. The Imperial government focuses on education (military and tech) and funding industry.
1820
Revolution erupts in Spain, but Joseph accepts the new constitution, removing the draconian laws made right after the reconquest of Spain. Mexico is freed by Joseph as a vassal (with the Emperor's approval of course). Imperial troops are pulled out of Argentina, Chile, and Peru. Only Gran Colombia is subjegated.
1821
The Greek Revolution
1822
The Grande Armee de Orient sets out from Budapest to "help" the Greek cause. The Czar joins Napoleon in this righteous crusade, marching down and "securing" the Black Sea coast. Brtain sends aid and more "advisors" (including Wellington) to the Turks. The Emperor annihialtes all the Turks armies in the Balkans. By late summer, Napoleon and Alexander lay seige to the Porte itself. Britain declares war on Napoleon, making the Sultan promise that he will recognize Greek independence after the war. Meanwhile, Napoleon and Alexander begin to argue over the divison of the Ottoman spoils. The Czar leaves that winter, threatening to declare war if the French take Constantinople.
1823
Constantinople remains blocked by the French, but no shelling or assualting of the city is done. The Republic of Hellas (under French influcene) is proclaimed. Feb. - Napoleon and some of the Grande Armee de Orient arrive in Egypt again. Mehemet Ali quickly recalls troops from Nubia and a number of bloody and inconclusive battles are fought. In the Fall - 3rd Battle of the Nile - the French win because of numerical superiority and inept British command. Napoleon returns to Paris and the Armee returns to the Balkans. The second Egyptian expedition is over.

But wait there's more...