A more suitable coat of arms for England

[Aardvark Bellay]

Interesting, Is all your counties Pagan?

Err..no, of course not with a start in 1241 England.

Though looking at the events....the triggers look irritating....and the 1241 start i tested it on is no
de Normandie king, so can't have that required script flag set in the first place, but it still triggered...weird.....
Anyway, ....
Just use the simple dragon flag mod.
It simply replaces the flag. No fuss.

 

[WJS]

I just want to add that the one thing I like about the Three Lions is that it makes the Stamford Bridge start delightfully confusing, because it's One Lion vs. Two Lions vs. Three Lions. Wales and Anjou (aka Four Lions and Six Lions) need to find a way into that war.

 

[thevmag]

Four Lions gets involved eventually, but that's outside the game's time frame.

 

[Spartanlemur]

I wasn't saying that the St. George is the correct flag for the era, so lets leave it out.
But how can the white dragon be the correct flag *when it was never the flag in the first place*?
It's mentioned as a Briton legend in a source from 829, and effectively the source is repeated again in 1136. At least so far I've yet to see anything that makes it *actually* a uniting symbol of the Anglo Saxons, or a symbol of Saxon England used *by* Saxon England.

Use of it does *not* reflect history, and is not grounded in fact.


As I said, I'll take it if there's *nothing* else that makes sense, but I really don't like it - it's not *their* symbol - it's one used in a telling of a British legend, and for all it's told during Saxon times, it's telliing that the Saxon symbol loses to the Briton one.

I wasn't implying you said the St George's flag was correct for the era. My point was that the St George's flag is the one usually use by nationalist revival movements because those movements tend to use the correct flags.

Hence by your logic, correct flags will end up with nationalist connotations (inevitably I suppose: flags exist because there are different nations).

Now, the argument for the white dragon flag is not that it has been verified beyond doubt, but that of all the potential banners we might give the Anglo-Saxons, it is the one with the most historical evidence behind it (not a lot of evidence, but even a couple of references is good for a period about which we know very little). You'll find certainty about very few things in the early medieval period, so guesswork and creativity ends up filling the gap - this is the closest we come to "fact".

Also, you do realise that symbols and legends are intertwined? The wolf was a symbol of Rome because of Romulus. The symbols of a people come from their mythology, hence why the flags of so many Christian countries use a cross (because the symbol comes from Christian myth). Flags the world over have their roots in mythology, so if we don't have a flag, drawing from mythology is the logical thing to do.

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

I wasn't implying you said the St George's flag was correct for the era. My point was that the St George's flag is the one usually use by nationalist revival movements because those movements tend to use the correct flags.

Hence by your logic, correct flags will end up with nationalist connotations (inevitably I suppose: flags exist because there are different nations).

Now, the argument for the white dragon flag is not that it has been verified beyond doubt, but that of all the potential banners we might give the Anglo-Saxons, it is the one with the most historical evidence behind it (not a lot of evidence, but even a couple of references is good for a period about which we know very little). You'll find certainty about very few things in the early medieval period, so guesswork and creativity ends up filling the gap - this is the closest we come to "fact".

Also, you do realise that symbols and legends are intertwined? The wolf was a symbol of Rome because of Romulus. The symbols of a people come from their mythology, hence why the flags of so many Christian countries use a cross (because the symbol comes from Christian myth). Flags the world over have their roots in mythology, so if we don't have a flag, drawing from mythology is the logical thing to do.

The problem is that the mythology the white dragon comes from is the Celtic one, not the Saxon one. The dragon banner we see in use by Harold on the Bayeux tapestry appears to be red rather than white - although the tapestry isn't necessarily accurate, and they may have coloured the dragon to make it stand out from the background.

It'd be like giving the Picts a banner based on what the Irish used to represent the Scots in an allegorical scene.

 

[WJS]

Isn't part of the problem also that England is big, and so the Anglo-Saxons never developed a symbol to represent all of England? I haven't been able to find any symbol that would represent the Bretwalda, but perhaps a knot/lindworm adorned Saxon helmet might work?

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

Knotwork could work well - and would coincidentally cover a Norse England.

 

[thevmag]

Knotwork could work well

Appropriate for Holy Furries.

 

[WJS]

Knotwork could work well - and would coincidentally cover a Norse England.

That's what I'm thinking. It's Norse...

Saxon...

...and Celtic.

 

[Dhekelian]

My understanding is that the Wessex banner was used by the Englisc Army first against the battles with the Mercians and then at Hastings. There is a gold dragon on the Bayeau Tapestry as well as a white one. https://britishcountyflags.com/2013/09/20/wessex-flag/ I'm well aware of the dodgy groups that use the flag as their emblem and is it a huge leap of face that some may of used a white Dragon as well? Dragon's and serpents were commonplace back then for many countries, I believe it was the gold dragon that was used and maybe the white dragon an adaption but it is plausable no?

 

[Mindel]

I think these other suggestions would also be good replacements for the three lions. I'm not wedded to the white dragon; it was just one example of an improvement on the current CoA.

 

[Mindel]

Now we're going to get to see Æthelstan with the three lions England CoA.

 

[SigurdStormhand]

This problem is hardly unique to England - the same issue is present when a Karling rules West Francia with the Capetian CoA.

You could make an argument for a Gold or White Wyvern Passant on a Red but not the White Dragon Rampant as suggested by the OP.

For those of you who want this expressed formally this would be, 'A Wyvern Passant Or on a field Gules.'

The solution actually already exists in the game - allow Christians to use Dynaic Coats of Arms like Muslims (but not Dynamic realm titles).

 

[Mindel]

This problem is hardly unique to England - the same issue is present when a Karling rules West Francia with the Capetian CoA.

You could make an argument for a Gold or White Wyvern Passant on a Red but not the White Dragon Rampant as suggested by the OP.

For those of you who want this expressed formally this would be, 'A Wyvern Passant Or on a field Gules.'

The solution actually already exists in the game - allow Christians to use Dynaic Coats of Arms like Muslims (but not Dynamic realm titles).

I was not being very careful when I grabbed an image off the internet. It might be helpful for you to include an image to illustrate the difference.

 

[SigurdStormhand]

This is Passant, pacing.

 

[IndigoRage]

My understanding is that the Wessex banner was used by the Englisc Army first against the battles with the Mercians and then at Hastings. There is a gold dragon on the Bayeau Tapestry as well as a white one. https://britishcountyflags.com/2013/09/20/wessex-flag/ I'm well aware of the dodgy groups that use the flag as their emblem and is it a huge leap of face that some may of used a white Dragon as well? Dragon's and serpents were commonplace back then for many countries, I believe it was the gold dragon that was used and maybe the white dragon an adaption but it is plausable no?

Why even bother looking for historical examples of the white dragon when you already have the greatest example of all: Highschool DxD.

 

[Arclath2]

Only if Welsh holders of the Kingdom of England get a flag of a red dragon on a white background

 

[sreckom92]

Personally, I would love a game rule where Kingdoms and Empires use coat of arms of dynasties who rule them.

 

[Ruwaard]

You're correct so far as that it wouldn't be dynamic when compared to the pagan versions (York, Novgorod, Uppland, etc). However, different CoAs based on culture based on culture does exist in the game in two instances: Lombardy --> Italy and Avaria --> Pannonia.

The changes are not dynamic though; they take place immediately when a non Lombard takes Lombardy or when a non Avar takes Avaria. They are irreversible and the effect is signified with events ("The Kingdom of Italy" and "Fall of the Avars" respectively). The same could easily be accomplished with England changing whenever a non Saxon acquires it.

(Mechanically, I think it's managed by having two completely separate titles having their title history copied and de jure territory automatically transferred. If it's separate titles, then they might have different associated cultures: meaning that future Liberation Revolts are English rather than Anglo-Saxon?)​

Possibly, but since this feature has been in the game since Charlemagne and hasn't been expanded since so I find it unlikely. Additionally, of your examples only the non Capet french flag is in any way reasonable but is in a slightly different ballpark since it's dynasty specific rather than culture specific. Having realms receiving CoAs based on the ruling dynasty is a Muslim (and Nomadic) feature.

This. I'm not against an additional Anglo-Saxon variant for England, provided Post-Norman conquest England keeps the more recognizable Three Lions. So different CoA's Anglo-Saxon --> Norman England like Lombardy --> Italy IMHO would be best.
In the history file of k_italy, there's this line:

565.1.1={
    holder = 190124 #Alboin
    name = LOMBARD_KINGDOM
    adjective = LOMBARD_KINGDOM_ADJ
    effect = { set_coa = k_lombardy }
}

Now there are two options:

1066.10.14={
   holder=140 # William the Conqueror
   conquest_culture = norman
   law = succ_primogeniture
   law = centralization_1
   effect = { set_coa = k_norman_england }
}

Or:

927.7.12={
   holder=33350 # Aethelstan the Glorious
   law = succ_feudal_elective
   effect = { set_coa = k_saxon_england }
}

That's excluding Briton 'England' AKA Britannia. So it works with starting dates, this should also tackle the issue of a CoA change without a Norman Conquest, now if done like this, an event, which changes the CoA more dynamically still remains interesting as well.

 

[Fulgrim]

Basically I agree with claim, but we also should have in mind that three lions is the best known CoA of England and, to be honest, lions is just popular heraldry figure. I can imagine that such heraldry symbol could appear not for the normans, but just for another feodal.

The best option, as for me, set dragon as CoA for pre-norman period and give for any ruler (or at least non-anglosaxon ruler) of England decision to change the CoA on three lions.

P. S. And, of course, I would be glad if the same option will appear for Rus too.