Tbh what the game needs is better dynastic coats of arms and then using said CoA as country CoA
A more suitable coat of arms for England
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Tbh what the game needs is better dynastic coats of arms and then using said CoA as country CoA
I would even settle for modded CoA of titles and dynasties without effecting Achievments. Last time I checked for such mods they all disabled them. But it is a while so maybe I’m already wrong 
I would even settle for modded CoA of titles and dynasties without effecting Achievments. Last time I checked for such mods they all disabled them. But it is a while so maybe I’m already wrong
Can you link the mod pls?
It could be. Most countries' flags and sigils started as the personal Coat of Arms of families.
Why? I've always seen the Roman CoA as pretty religion-neutral. You know, eagles and stuff.
This would be nice but then you have two major issues:
- From what I know, the only way to have "dynamic" CoAs is for different religions. Notice the regular Duchy of York vs. the Germanic Duchy of Jorvik (York). So unless this can be applied for different cultures, it might not work.
- This will also spill over to other places, not just England. People will want a French flag that is not Capet derived, and so on. It might reach a point where people will want a unique Visigothic flag for the Roman Empire, or maybe a unique flag for a Russian ruler of Portugal, or a Greek ruler having his own flag for Sweden. I know this is a slippery slope, but giving this for Anglo Saxon England will open the doors for other cultures to demand their own flags for all realms.
- From what I know, the only way to have "dynamic" CoAs is for different religions. Notice the regular Duchy of York vs. the Germanic Duchy of Jorvik (York). So unless this can be applied for different cultures, it might not work.
- This will also spill over to other places, not just England. People will want a French flag that is not Capet derived, and so on. It might reach a point where people will want a unique Visigothic flag for the Roman Empire, or maybe a unique flag for a Russian ruler of Portugal, or a Greek ruler having his own flag for Sweden. I know this is a slippery slope, but giving this for Anglo Saxon England will open the doors for other cultures to demand their own flags for all realms.
You're correct so far as that it wouldn't be dynamic when compared to the pagan versions (York, Novgorod, Uppland, etc). However, different CoAs based on culture based on culture does exist in the game in two instances: Lombardy --> Italy and Avaria --> Pannonia.
The changes are not dynamic though; they take place immediately when a non Lombard takes Lombardy or when a non Avar takes Avaria. They are irreversible and the effect is signified with events ("The Kingdom of Italy" and "Fall of the Avars" respectively). The same could easily be accomplished with England changing whenever a non Saxon acquires it.
(Mechanically, I think it's managed by having two completely separate titles having their title history copied and de jure territory automatically transferred. If it's separate titles, then they might have different associated cultures: meaning that future Liberation Revolts are English rather than Anglo-Saxon?)
Possibly, but since this feature has been in the game since Charlemagne and hasn't been expanded since so I find it unlikely. Additionally, of your examples only the non Capet french flag is in any way reasonable but is in a slightly different ballpark since it's dynasty specific rather than culture specific. Having realms receiving CoAs based on the ruling dynasty is a Muslim (and Nomadic) feature.
A Christian roman empire's emblem could be something like the labarum . A gold christogram melting P and X on purple . It was the imperial emblem since Constantin and during the late empire .
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Personally, I think a labarum would make a nice CoA for the Byzantine Empire.
Cool.
What if I kick out the Anglo-Saxons as the Welsh, Scots, Picts, or Irish?
What about Norse k_england?
What should the k_england flag be in those cases?
The three lions of the plantagenets are no more appopriate for any of the above cases - or indeed for pretty much any non-Plantagenet derived state, being at heart their dynastic emblem.
I agree. But these are larger issues than the question of implementing an Anglo-Saxon CoA.
I am currently trying the Anglo-Saxon flag swapper. My chracter is an Anglo-Saxon Pagan even though some regions are Catholic but I have just created the Kingdom of England and it gave me that norman flag. Think I might try the other one, thanks for posting links.
*edited* The Workshop variant got an update in november. The forum attachment is likely outdated.
PS: i just tested the Workshop variant with an english king in 1241, consoled myself to anglo-saxon and the flag change event happened immediately, so it (appears as if it) works.
Maybe the trigger requires the title already existing and a ruler or its culture changing and just not on creation of the title.
Either way, the last time i also just used the simply flag mod, but at one point replaced the dragon with the version of the swapper mod and added an empire variant.
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I've seen more Norse k_england than Anglo-Saxon ones.
But I guess my main point is that whilst looking at a replacement for the three lions it'd be nice to find an emblem that fits more than just the one option, or even one that's usable by (virtually) anyone starting in 769/867.
But that might be a forelorn hope, since there's a lot of cultures can setup shop there even without serious intervention.
It is hopeless to aim for a suitable CoA for every hypothetical foreign conquest. The number of possibilities is overwhelming. Also, exotic scenarios like Norse Byzantium, Persian France, etc. have no historical models to work from. The results would be nothing but pure fantasy.
But the case of England is special. England is a situation where a foreign conquest actually happened in history, leaving us with a "foreign CoA" i.e. the three lions. But the default state in 769 is that England is an Anglo-Saxon kingdom. In some respects, this never changed. It's worth noting that common people in England to this day are primarily descended from Anglo-Saxons; only the aristocracy was replaced by Normans.
I feel it is reasonable to ask that kingdoms have a "non-foreign-conquered" CoA as their default. It's silly to start out with a foreign one from a conquest that hasn't even happened yet.
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Heck while we’re at it let’s get rid of that TetraGrammatic Cross used by ingame Empire of Byzantium which was only used by Nicaea Byzantium under the Palaiologos Dynasty in the last 70 years of the games playable timeperiod. The Chi Rho in a golden circle or Single Headed eagle behind a purple or red background would be more accurate for the general time period and Actual Byzantium.
Interesting, Is all your counties Pagan? Perhaps I have to start afresh you think? I remember swapping the flags a while ago but cannot remember where I got them from. Thanks for the info though.
That surely depends if *one* generic coat of arms that works can be found, which is more what I meant than one per culture, covering everything.
As I've said before I've rarely seen an Anglo-Saxon k_england form, and more often see something in a Norse vein there.
Norse Byzantium has a couple of possible and plausible things to draw on - the Varangians would be the likely source for such a thing should they overthrow the Emperor, so that one at least is not "pure fantasy" in that there's a plausible method to get there. Not likely, but at least plausible.
Much like the earlier post of Welsh/Scots/Pictish/Irish/Norse "England" are all perfectly reasonable and sensible.
White Dragon is tricky, as it's not necessarily pan-Anglo-Saxon, depending on your source, and could effectively just be one or two of the warlords early on rather than *the* Saxon symbol. It's mentioned in only a couple of sources and didn't carry through as "the Saxon banner" after that - and the sources (with one based on the other...) place it as a mythic allegory of the totem beasts of the Britons and the Saxons rather than any sort of actually representative emblem.
But yes. It would be nice to have a non-lion based England, and if anything the lions should be the exception, with *something* working as the default that everyone else gets.
I don't even like the idea of "generic Norman/generic English" using the lions because it's a dynastic shield that circumstances are unlikely to recreate from the early starts.
Somehow, I just don't like the white dragon on a red banner, and wish there was a better Anglo-Saxon England flag, and perhaps relevantly one that isn't used by a nationalist "revival" movement. As an interesting note, the Bayeux tapestry seems to suggest Harold (as king of the Anglo-Saxons) was under a *red* dragon (the Briton's standard) rather than a white one (the supposed Saxon standard) - although I don't suggest adopting that because it'd confuse matters with e_britannia or d_gwynedd. Unfortunately I don't have a good single suggestion because all the different Anglo-Saxon groups used their own markings and it didn't really get a lasting "national" symbol as such when it did finally coalesce into one state.
That said, I'd -reluctantly- accept it as the 769/867 starting date flag for forming England from the Saxons, and for lack of anything better for forming it with most other cultures.
Nationalist revival movements use it because it is the correct flag. The later St George's Cross is more associated with nationalist movements but it is the correct English flag used since Henry VII.
Paradox games can cater to the modern sensibilities of our milieus or they can simply reflect history, which is not only the neutral option, but also the one that grounds us in fact. They have an international audience with many different sensibilities, and so the broadest appeal can only come by remaining mostly true to history.
Not using the dragon flag (which I should admit that I love because it contrasts well with the red dragon of the Welsh) leaves us without anything that is not unreasonably ahistorical or impractical.
I wasn't saying that the St. George is the correct flag for the era, so lets leave it out.
But how can the white dragon be the correct flag *when it was never the flag in the first place*?
It's mentioned as a Briton legend in a source from 829, and effectively the source is repeated again in 1136. At least so far I've yet to see anything that makes it *actually* a uniting symbol of the Anglo Saxons, or a symbol of Saxon England used *by* Saxon England.
Use of it does *not* reflect history, and is not grounded in fact.
As I said, I'll take it if there's *nothing* else that makes sense, but I really don't like it - it's not *their* symbol - it's one used in a telling of a British legend, and for all it's told during Saxon times, it's telliing that the Saxon symbol loses to the Briton one.