A modest proposal about massive annexations.

[WeissRaben]

I have been thinking about the problem of conciliating OE, warscore and the almost instantaneous annexations that happened, here and there, in history. Two of them are particularly aggravating in their impossibility, because they were events both incredibly important for future ramifications of their area and because they showed that, given the right conditions, it was very possible to integrate a whole country in one go. I am, of course, talking about the Ottomans annexing the Mameluks and Manchu invading Ming. Now, I am all against just allowing a nation to go and annex provinces worth 600% in OE: it would make everything a race to annex-release vassal, which is less than ideal. The idea that came up, though, some already have seen in action back in the times of EU3 1.0: I am talking about turboannexation.

For those that arrived later, up to Vanilla EU3 (or at most NA), when a country collapsed to rebels with other nations occupying its provinces, those nations got all the provinces they were occupying immediately. This was various kinds of broken, of course, and it was removed without many tears shed. This was because it was really easy to do it: ramp up WE, stabhit them when possible, then occupy everything but the capital. Rebels rose, they occupied 100% of the free nation, the nation collapsed. As said, overpowered.

Now, though, we could make this a bit better. Have a modifier, "National Disintegration", coming up when you have all of these (or a combination of most of these):

- Low stability;
- High WE;
- Very low prestige;
- Low legitimacy/RT;
- Outstanding loans;
- And, of course, at war, and with negative WS.

As soon as WS reaches -90, and the nation has this modifier, the attacker gets an event, "The Fate of $NATION$", telling that the defender has lost any kind of capability of defending, the army is mutinying, the government officials are in hiding from mobs, and so on. It then give three options:

- "We are not interested in erasing them!" just cancels the message and sets a flag to not have it pop up again;
- "We will take what we are occupying!" annexes all the provinces that are in the attacker hands and ends the war (open if not at 100% warscore, gives a modest amount of AE);
- "Let's see how comfortable is the throne of $NATION$...", annexing the whole country in one go (with noticeable AE as a result).

Options two and three would perforce need to give cores - OE would destroy the country, otherwise, which is not something that happened to Manchu and the Ottomans.

Thoughts?

 

[Xara]

I've actually seen a screenshot someone posted of this very thing happening to France. I'm not sure if that was a mod or not, though. Something about "they cannot even conduct a proper war" and all the provinces got annexed.

 

[balmung60]

Hm... still pretty exploitable since high WE, abysmal prestige, negative war score, and outstanding loans tend to all go hand in hand. It'd basically come down to finding a country with low stability and prestige, then stomping them until you get free annexation and cores.

Still, more elegant than the extremely specific event chain used to generate a special superCB used to model the Ottoman annexation of the Mamluks.

 

[americanu197]

difficult to make this hard to exploit...
maybe if its something like
Leg/RT under 10
Manpower under 10%
Neg Stab
and 100% WS
and give a CB to any allies

 

[WeissRaben]

difficult to make this hard to exploit...
maybe if its something like
Leg/RT under 10
Manpower under 10%
and 100% WS
and give a CB to any allies

It is indeed hard to build without leaving space for making (obvious) exploits out of it, but I believe it to be the way - allow such an annexation when the central administration of the invaded has completely collapsed.

 

[Flayer92]

Perhaps the conquering nation could also need +3 Stability or some other factors as prerequisites to do a turboannex.

That'd be an interesting mechanic actually - the size of annexations you are able to make being based on the stability of your empire.

 

[balmung60]

That might actually make some sense, seeing as logically, a stable nation could probably administer more new land than an unstable one.

On the other hand, "Time to sue for peace" *Comet* "FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU-"

 

[WeissRaben]

Perhaps the conquering nation could also need +3 Stability or some other factors as prerequisites to do a turboannex.

That'd be an interesting mechanic actually - the size of annexations you are able to make being based on the stability of your empire.

A better administration mechanic would be good, yes. Wouldn't need to be anything terrible - Stability helps, ADM stat of the ruler helps, better government types help, Administration Ideas help, current size hinders. All together, it would pose a modifier on how much overextension you get per base tax.

 

[Sir Garnet]

With the Mamelukes it was displacing one group of foreign rulers with another, and with China the Manchu had already proclaimed a new dynasty and defeating the Imperial army and taking the capital put momentum and the Mandate of Heaven in play in favor of Qing legitimacy.

It is always interesting to see how legitimacy differs around the world. In places focusing on culture/race/ruling bloodlines the struggle can continue, or at least lie latent awaitig opportunity (despite imposition of foreign rule and culture), for centuries.

So the dynamics should differ based on the circumstances.

 

[BBBD316]

I think these ideas have merits, but would find it hard for players not to exploit the mechanics.

Even if you just reduced AE when taking provinces from nations with low Leg/RT.

 

[aitaituo]

Interesting idea and some tweaks would make it less prone to exploitation.

Only allow the event if both nations have the same religion.
Forbid Christians from having the event altogether.
Forbid the event from firing against nations with the horde government type, unless both nations are hordes.
Add and require an event for Manchu/Chinese culture nations to gain the mandate of heaven before the event can fire for them.

 

[unmerged(798670)]

It's not a bad suggestion, if implemented it would make the game more enjoyable, but I would prefer they return several of the methods they have removed first as they are more diverse than the current options. This one is basically just a slight modification to the normal way you would wage a war anyway, many of the removed options add more strategic choices and several functioned optimally in the circumstances you suggest for national disintegration.

 

[AKronblad]

I have been thinking about the problem of conciliating OE, warscore and the almost instantaneous annexations that happened, here and there, in history. Two of them are particularly aggravating in their impossibility, because they were events both incredibly important for future ramifications of their area and because they showed that, given the right conditions, it was very possible to integrate a whole country in one go. I am, of course, talking about the Ottomans annexing the Mameluks and Manchu invading Ming. Now, I am all against just allowing a nation to go and annex provinces worth 600% in OE: it would make everything a race to annex-release vassal, which is less than ideal. The idea that came up, though, some already have seen in action back in the times of EU3 1.0: I am talking about turboannexation.

For those that arrived later, up to Vanilla EU3 (or at most NA), when a country collapsed to rebels with other nations occupying its provinces, those nations got all the provinces they were occupying immediately. This was various kinds of broken, of course, and it was removed without many tears shed. This was because it was really easy to do it: ramp up WE, stabhit them when possible, then occupy everything but the capital. Rebels rose, they occupied 100% of the free nation, the nation collapsed. As said, overpowered.

Now, though, we could make this a bit better. Have a modifier, "National Disintegration", coming up when you have all of these (or a combination of most of these):

- Low stability;
- High WE;
- Very low prestige;
- Low legitimacy/RT;
- Outstanding loans;
- And, of course, at war, and with negative WS.

As soon as WS reaches -90, and the nation has this modifier, the attacker gets an event, "The Fate of $NATION$", telling that the defender has lost any kind of capability of defending, the army is mutinying, the government officials are in hiding from mobs, and so on. It then give three options:

- "We are not interested in erasing them!" just cancels the message and sets a flag to not have it pop up again;
- "We will take what we are occupying!" annexes all the provinces that are in the attacker hands and ends the war (open if not at 100% warscore, gives a modest amount of AE);
- "Let's see how comfortable is the throne of $NATION$...", annexing the whole country in one go (with noticeable AE as a result).

Options two and three would perforce need to give cores - OE would destroy the country, otherwise, which is not something that happened to Manchu and the Ottomans.

Thoughts?

I like that idea a lot, especially with a requirement combination of the annexor being very strong and stable and the annexee very weak and unstable.! Question is only which exact requirements to have for each of the two countries?

Also, I'm considering a variation of this to apply to a overlord on its vassal. As an alternative to the built-in diplo-annexation that I strongly dislike. (Strange to think that a vassal could be annexed because it likes its overlord so much. More realistic instead for a very strong overlord to be able to annex a very weak vassal. Also adds a strategic element: if you want to keep your vassals, treat them well and keep them strong sui that they can assist you and you can get maximum use of them, but not too strong, since they may attempt to break free if overlord turns weak... If you plan to integrate a vassal instead, stay strong and make vassal very weak and unstable, but until you reach the annexation threshold you will not have much use of that vassal.)

Thoughts?

 

[Veta]

I agree with the sentiment. I think for some of these historical cases dynamic history events, with specialized casus belli would also be appropriate. For example, a Chinese unification CB among competing successors. A subjugation casus belli event on a rival of the same culture group i.e. Muscovy vs Novgorod, Turks vs Mamelukes. The latter might only occur when that rival is particularly vulnerable/weak as you describe.

Something equivalent for the various conquests and formations of Persia would be welcome as well.

 

[AKronblad]

It's not a bad suggestion, if implemented it would make the game more enjoyable, but I would prefer they return several of the methods they have removed first as they are more diverse than the current options. This one is basically just a slight modification to the normal way you would wage a war anyway, many of the removed options add more strategic choices and several functioned optimally in the circumstances you suggest for national disintegration.

Which removed options and methods would that be? I really like the by WeissRaben suggested setup.

 

[mcmanusaur]

I wouldn't mind something like this, but I'm afraid I don't foresee Paradox adopting anything along these lines.

 

[Autokrator48]

Is there not already an event similar to this were provinces you siege have a chance to defect to you?

I do not know what triggered it, but I remember as Crimea I invaded Lithuania, sieged all their lands and at least 3 or 4 of their provinces defected by event during the war to me.

 

[Orkonkel]

The Ottoman conquest of Hungary really is something I'd never do in game. The extra coring cost for pretty useless territory just isn't going to happen.

 

[Pellucid]

Alternate suggestion using same criteria:

Perhaps an event fires for countries neighboring such a weak nation that gives them a special CB allowing vassalization at 100% WS regardless of the nation's size?

 

[Noctus]

@OP

Too easy to exploit.