Originally posted by KungMarkatta
Yes, and I have a good theory why it came out so fast.... as many others sure has noticed too
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Hey, isn't this spam?Originally posted by Uglyduck
To avoid this post facing the same fate as the one previous to it (
), I'll throw my 2 cents in on this issue.While I'd prefer if every game was 'finished' when released, with a company like Paradox I don't really mind. Just think guys... we have the ability to give direct input that will be reflected in the game. That's a great opportunity!
Originally posted by Trip
Hey, isn't this spam?
Not at all - think of it as Editorial Comment .........
Everyone who's been around these boards for a while knows that Paradox goes a long way to please us (the customers).
I've lost track of how many times Johan has hijacked a thread with his input
That being said then Paradox can also do better i.e. EU2 still has some major issues that could be fixed but I guess it's a question of resources and I'd rather see Paradox stay in business than going down on making EU2 perfect when it's last years news and no longer sells.
/dev
I've lost track of how many times Johan has hijacked a thread with his input
That being said then Paradox can also do better i.e. EU2 still has some major issues that could be fixed but I guess it's a question of resources and I'd rather see Paradox stay in business than going down on making EU2 perfect when it's last years news and no longer sells.
/dev
Originally posted by Dev
Everyone who's been around these boards for a while knows that Paradox goes a long way to please us (the customers).
I've lost track of how many times Johan has hijacked a thread with his input
That being said then Paradox can also do better i.e. EU2 still has some major issues that could be fixed but I guess it's a question of resources and I'd rather see Paradox stay in business than going down on making EU2 perfect when it's last years news and no longer sells.
/dev
However - patch 1.06 *is* in progress. It will probably be the last one but it is being worked on -
I don't mind bugs/CTDs all too much unless they're game breaking (declare war on the USSR and you get a CTD ), so I don't really watch patches after 1.04 or so with bated breath... I'm just interested in the game tweaks and additions personally.
), so I don't really watch patches after 1.04 or so with bated breath... I'm just interested in the game tweaks and additions personally. I know
I wanted to apply for testing since I was playing it a lot when Johan announced it but I got the wrong version *grumbles*
Nevermind now though, I discovered there's a life outside EU and it's called HOI
/dev
Originally posted by Uglyduck
How BiBesque of you!
The bean counters/marketers rule. They don't give a fat rat's ass about quality/patches etc. Get it out by selling season to make the books look good. Some schmuck (or his parent) will buy it - our investors will be happy. Don't worry if they don't like it - as long as they buy it.
Thank goodness paradox has at least been good enough to do a whole lot of follow up work.
BTW - I agree that games are announced way too early. Again the market guys want to generate interest and test the waters.
I got an email the other day,
(this is relevant, bear with me...)
Bioware has update their Witch Wood module for Neverwinter Nights. I went over and checked it out. Witch Wood is a mod that uses at least seven game design mods made by designers and players. Very inovative, very cool. Unfortunately, the latest patch clashes with the latest ATI Catalyst 2.5, so the game crashes. Oh well. Patch 1.28 will be out early next year.
(for those who complain about the neat and tidy CTD that HoI experiences, you should try the horrific Black screen of death that NWN dishes out! But this is irrelevant)
That game never stops. You know, it still sells for $69.99 CAD, while its contemporaries are down to $49. Not bad for a game thats been out for six months. The key thing is that the game NEVER leaves the design stage! It keeps evolving, just like EU/EUII.
So heres' a new spin on this discussion - maybe we should be designing games with a nice, stable, predictable core that is ready to be modified 'six ways from Sunday'. These boards provide the market and the medium to plan, design, implement and follow-up on evolving game systems.
(this is relevant, bear with me...)
Bioware has update their Witch Wood module for Neverwinter Nights. I went over and checked it out. Witch Wood is a mod that uses at least seven game design mods made by designers and players. Very inovative, very cool. Unfortunately, the latest patch clashes with the latest ATI Catalyst 2.5, so the game crashes. Oh well. Patch 1.28 will be out early next year.
(for those who complain about the neat and tidy CTD that HoI experiences, you should try the horrific Black screen of death that NWN dishes out! But this is irrelevant)
That game never stops. You know, it still sells for $69.99 CAD, while its contemporaries are down to $49. Not bad for a game thats been out for six months. The key thing is that the game NEVER leaves the design stage! It keeps evolving, just like EU/EUII.
So heres' a new spin on this discussion - maybe we should be designing games with a nice, stable, predictable core that is ready to be modified 'six ways from Sunday'. These boards provide the market and the medium to plan, design, implement and follow-up on evolving game systems.
Originally posted by Sonny
The bean counters/marketers rule. They don't give a fat rat's ass about quality/patches etc. Get it out by selling season to make the books look good. Some schmuck (or his parent) will buy it - our investors will be happy. Don't worry if they don't like it - as long as they buy it.
Thank goodness paradox has at least been good enough to do a whole lot of follow up work.
BTW - I agree that games are announced way too early. Again the market guys want to generate interest and test the waters.
I disagree. Being a marketer myself, I can tell you that not giving a fat rat's ass about quality is grossly unfair. We do, however, look at things quite differently than people in design/engineering/r&d. They tend to want their creation to be perfect before it is released to the public. Fact is, nothing is ever perfect. Marketers have the difficult task of making (forcing?) the "it's good enough" decision. Sometimes marketing errors - grossly so - but I strongly feel that in many cases a company would be out of business before the development team decided a product was ready without pressure. The important thing, in my estimation, is that the marketing and development groups are as responsive as possible when they become aware that their release decision resulted in a product their customers are unhappy with. In the end, it is the responsiveness and effort put forth by Paradox and Strategy First after release that has won my loyalty and ensures that I will buy every game they put out together - even more than the strength of their excellent games.
Maybe I should have said bean counters + marketers instead of bean counters/marketers.
Did you buy and play EU II 1.00? And HOI 1.00? With what Paradox does as follow up I don't think the problem lies with them (other than the usual underestimation of how long development takes - even then that might be due to outside pressure).
I've never cared for Space games, but I plan on buying MOO III just because it appears that they care enough about initial release quality to hold off on an inferior product. It may turn out otherwise if 1.00 has got serious problems - they sure have had enough time to do it right.
BTW, have any later versions of HOI been shipped, or do we still have to buy 1.00 and download the patch from here??
Originally posted by Sonny
I've never cared for Space games, but I plan on buying MOO III just because it appears that they care enough about initial release quality to hold off on an inferior product. It may turn out otherwise if 1.00 has got serious problems - they sure have had enough time to do it right.
I think this is exactly the kind of thing any game player needs to consider. If you are buying games that you feel are released too soon, then stop doing it. Dont reward those companies who have a history of this kind of thing, if you do they have no reason to change.
Stop buying their games or delay your purchase until the game has reached whatever level of performance that you find personally acceptable. More than anything else that will get their attention and produce changes and perhaps the results you want.
At the same time however I think game players should reward those who do put out good sound enjoyable games that are not still "works in progress" upon release. If I continue to have the same experience with Stragey First that I and countless others had with HOI then I will not buy from them anymore.
Personally I am willing to give Strategy First another shot in the future, due to my above mentioned dealings with them, and my honest belief that some of the changes I discussed with Mr McFatridge were going to be implimented. Plus I got a free game out of it - never a bad thing.
I'd just like to ask, for all of you who have complained about bugs, have you ever played daggerfall (its an rpg that came out in the mid 90s), there was a buggy game, it was great, but buggy, worse than the windows 95 beta (and though i was under 10 when it came out, my dad did beta test it........ it was bad). And for those of you who don't play many rpgs.... Star Trek: Armada, another buggy game, which, though you could change alot of the aspects in the game (like HoI), you couldn't fix the bugs because they weren't in the parts you could access..... Now i'd like to say that the story was rather reassuring, because in neither of those games did the management say anything, for ST: Armada, activision NEVER contacted the customers, and didn't do well about releasing patches, i think its a good sign that they're willing to talk to you, and that they do get patches out, instead of going on to the next game... anyway, i'll stop rambling now.......
omg...
well 1st, awesome post and really its something for a thum up!
2nd. (the omg was for both good and bad) WWIIonline
I was there!!!
U say U beta-tested it? I say I bought the Alpha version!
WW2OL was the worst release I ever came across and I quit playing after the 30 days free were over, I did not subscribe any day afterwards, even tho Playnet sends me emails to retry it...
I just had the feeling to doublecheck if it was from strategy first, as I went reading your post
I hold the maual in my hand atm...It was SF...! and it was way to early for a onlinegame to be published without the servers beeing able to support 50000 ppl.
They sold 30000 copys of the game in the first 10 hours after beeing in the shelfs and 25000 were returned 1 day later( or not many less..it was a lot, but it also is was over 1 year ago). That made the online vendor that made that they quit accepting it back, for the onces sold after a certain date. I guess that was bad news for SF. well they have it fixed now and running well with patches on regular basis etc...but the harm was done...I still wont pay it ever again.(mainly because my joystickport is broken lol)
Befor WW2OL I thought Taldrens starfleetcommand 2 beeing the worst release..but Cornered rat/SF managed to be even worst.
I have my best hopes HOI wont be that bad and we get the patches asap. Debugging is a pain, I know that from beein in many Betas and U cant fix codes that easy overnight. But its good to know they work on it!!!
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thanks for the calm discussion !
oh well folks,
Having a strong 'passionate' community following has both it's pluses and minuses.
As Ry mentioned SWG not only has many in beta (they're big so they can afford a big beta) but they also have PASSIONATE followers. The good news is people care and can express themselves ... the development teams just need to build a thick skin and yet hear the very real concerns being brought to them.
We as passionate community members need to realize that not only are things not perfect but sometimes things go worse than planned. As this thread shows, many companies release products with problems ... but also the many development cycles involved in a modern computer also play havoc. I've got a beautiful ATI video card ... but sometimes it's half the problem in game crashes. WinXP as well as older Wins aren't faultless either.
Anyway ... I still love my XP, ATI card, and SF games ...
I get really upset when the game does something 'unusual' but sometimes I even find it's my not fully reading the manual.
take care
enjoy
Kerm
When's the next patch ?
oh well folks,
Having a strong 'passionate' community following has both it's pluses and minuses.
As Ry mentioned SWG not only has many in beta (they're big so they can afford a big beta) but they also have PASSIONATE followers. The good news is people care and can express themselves ... the development teams just need to build a thick skin and yet hear the very real concerns being brought to them.
We as passionate community members need to realize that not only are things not perfect but sometimes things go worse than planned. As this thread shows, many companies release products with problems ... but also the many development cycles involved in a modern computer also play havoc. I've got a beautiful ATI video card ... but sometimes it's half the problem in game crashes. WinXP as well as older Wins aren't faultless either.
Anyway ... I still love my XP, ATI card, and SF games ...
I get really upset when the game does something 'unusual'
but sometimes I even find it's my not fully reading the manual.take care
enjoy
Kerm
When's the next patch ?
I agree. And therefore, they should either:
1. Give it to a dedicated group of developer/enthusiasts (under NDA) who can patches and/or improvement it for free/cheap;
2. Release the source to anyone who wants it, but still require a license/CD/key/whatever (yes, you can crack it if you have the source--but someone already cracked it without the source over a year ago); or
3. GPL it and put it on SourceForge.
What's the cost? Given the first two options, near zero. Given the third, how many copies of EU2 still sell per month, and how many people buying it today would not if they could download it instead?
What's the gain? Think about it. Whatever bugs they never fixed, whatever improvements you want, whatever options they didn't make configurable, someone else could do it. How much longer would you keep playing and talking about the game if it kept getting better? How much less worried would you be buying their next game, knowing that even if Sweden fell into the ocean, its flaws would still get fixed? How much is that kind of goodwill and marketing worth?
How much would it save Paradrox to drop the last couple of maintenance cycles, letting the community take over after 1.05? (I'm not going to mention that this would allow them to get away with releasing even more incomplete games....)
This strategy would not work for most of the industry--for the companies that think making replayable games is bad. But Paradox and SF are obviously different.
Love the idea, but the problem is with niche games/small companies the companies may go out of business before the game is finished. If no one bought EU until version 1.07 (which was actually the NA release version) then who could say that EU II would have been produced? And I consider EU II one of the top games ever produced. This, of course, leads to the cycle where the release version of HOI is less than acceptable because the bean counters and the forumites (including myself) are crying for the game. So it is a very tricky situation. It is also very tricky trying to find out what level of performance is acceptable.
I don't regret buying HOI. Paradox has supported their games and so I will support them. As long as they continue I too will continue. I sincerely hope, though, that they will become much better with their initial releases and have to patch fewer times in future games. The cycle can only continue so long before I look elsewhere for games.