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Kriegsspieler

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Please forgive the self-aggrandizing title -- it just seemed kind of appropriate. ;)

What I want to do here is lay down a marker for the kind of game that I -- and I imagine many others who play Victoria -- would like to see when the game is announced. I say "when" not because I have any new information about it, but more as a kind of wish fulfillment. If we all close our eyes and wish for Victoria 3 really, really hard, it will come. Besides, Paradox has now gone an uncomfortably long time without announcing a new game in the pipeline, so one has to think that the moment is not far off. There's only so much buzz that you can generate by announcing the 25th dlc for Crusader Kings!

In any case, what kind of game do we want to have? To begin, let me note that each of the main Paradox titles (setting aside Stellaris for a moment) has its own brand identity. EU has become the most "sandboxey" of Paradox's titles (as Johan has frequently said in the past, EU allows a player to "paint the world in his/her colors"). CK is the closest Paradox comes to a role-playing game. Meanwhile HOI is a little harder to classify. On the one hand, it was published to insert Paradox into a niche (WWII strategic gaming) that is well populated with other titles, which mans that it also has a large and ready-made audience. On the other hand, the balance that HOI creates between sandbox and historical reenactment is distinctive.

So where does that leave Victoria? When Vicky first appeared, there was nothing remotely like it anywhere in the gaming world. It was a stunningly original concept - so original, in fact, that to this day I have no idea at all how Johan came up with it. I believe the opacity and sophistication that was so characteristic of the original have given Vicky the brand identity of being the "brainiest" of Paradox's games. One could almost say that it was less a "game" than a study of 19th-century political, social and economic history. It wasn't always fun to play, for sure, but it was always deeply interesting to those who were willing to work with it. The same was true for Vicky2, even though its many crucial interface improvements and streamlining of play made it a good deal less opaque than the original.

So this "manifesto" is a call for Paradox to go with what brought Victoria to where it is now. Don't try to make it into a game with mass appeal. I fear greatly that they have been seduced by the surprising success of CKII into believing that any game can be brought to the masses. I can almost hear someone in the front office saying it now: "Hell, if even the Middle Ages can be made interesting to the masses, surely we can do the same for the 19th century!"

I have no quarrel with the fact that Paradox has to make money on its publications. But the "lesson" to be potentially drawn from CKII is very misleading, because in bringing CKII to the masses they didn't change the underlying logic and the brand of the original game. They just executed the original idea far, far better (and without the millstone of being abandoned by the partners who originally brought the idea to them) than the first time around. In the case of Vicky 3, there is a great danger of overturning nearly everything that has made its predecessors special.

If this analysis is correct, then there is a hard choice to be made here, between broadening the audience and losing the core that has sustained the game. Financially the choice may not be at all difficult to make. But to take this step would represent the most dramatic turn yet taken by Paradox away from its roots.
 
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EmpSid

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Hello.

I like your "Manifesto", it shows real concern of what near all the players of V2 will expect for a V3 if it will be a V3.

I would like to make a more deep analyse!

My experience on gaming started in Rome total war, and i was so mad on that game that i read every book or every internet page i could find on ancient Rome. it was so easy to mod, that myself i made 2 mods to make a more realism game, before finding that many others did the same thing. But the paradox game Rome, was far far away from this, it was a total disaster from my view point.
The reason: Grand Strategy games are not for ancient history.
Even from my view point CK2 is a disaster in realism (simulation), but is a very good game.

My conclusion on what i want to prove is that a grand strategy game must be after medieval times to be a simulation game, and the contrary is with total war games, they were a disaster after medieval times (except shogun 2 fots).

I want to mention that HOI2 and now HOI4 are the best simulation games for ww2, or ww1 if moded (skiping HOI3 that was unplayable).

It is in the blood of grand strategy games to simulate time period 1700-1945, and Victoria 2 was the jewelery of all grand strategy games.

In Victoria 2 it is so great in simulation (greater if enhanced with pdm) that you need to read 100 books to learn what you could learn in this game. I never thought it was possible to have a game like that, never tired of playing, and i found my will on moding a game worth to.

If there will be a Victoria 3, there are things on my opinion to be in this game:

1. DO NOT CHANGE THE MAP. Victoria 2 map is perfect, and should be keept for Victoria 3

2. The navy is best to be like in HO2, with more specs on different types of ships, and there is no steam warship class!!! (It is a steam corvete or steam frigate etc etc)

3. If Victoria 3 will have time period 1835-1935 like the V2, there is the need of introducing the military system of HOI4, because you cant genuiny simulate the 1914-1945 with the old military system.

4. There is the need of another type of evaluating a grate power, after 1920 there were less than 8 grat powers in the world, so the evaluation must be dynamic in quantity, or after 1914 the great powers can be freze and only the grat power dropings is expected, but with no risings. This can bring a cold war atmosfere if only 2 great power are left.

5. The economy system of current Victoria 2 is great, the only improvement shold be in adding more type of products and raw materials.

6. Do not change the recruitment and revolt system, it is very unike of V2 and should be in V3 too.

7. There is a way to improve the research system of Victoria. If it is possible to make things research only in university. For example, only country with a university build should have the chance to research things. Just a fact, in Albania (it is not in Africa or deep in Asia, but in Europe) only after 1945 we start having university (college), and after a period of time we started building by ourself the military and engineering construction in Albania.

8. Introducing doctrine, like HOI. Every major country has its oun fighting strategy.

9. If the game should be after 1915, there is necessary to have a airplane system like HIO4 (by the way, this airplane system of HOI4 is fantastinc and resolved this problem for once in other HOI games)

10. The pops on V2 should not be change on V3.

These are some of the things i would like to find in Victoria 3, in general for me the best game is a game with economics and politics like V2 and military system and military production like HOI4.

Best regards to everyone
 
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klingonadmiral

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5. The economy system of current Victoria 2 is great, the only improvement shold be in adding more type of products and raw materials.

The economy of Victoria 2 is a total trainwreck. Industrialism is not driven by Industrialisation itself (basically every factory needed newly available building materials like steel or cement, thus the factories producing those goods were needed, and to build those factories you needed more of those factories), but by the consumer side. Liquor Factories all day every day, because every single pop needs their daily bottle of booze. Meanwhile, Steel Factories are mathematically unable to become profitable. Yeah nope. It's fine that lategame consumer goods like telephones, radios and cars are great, but that liquor beats steel is laughable. Luckily HPM fixes that.

But enough about factories. Let's talk about money. There is only one way money can be generated: Precious Metal RGOs. That's ... problematic. There need to be central banks that insert money into the system.

Next point: trade. The trade system is very basic. There are no actual supply routes on the map, everything produced is magically warped to the market and from there magically warps to the buyer. You can not put tariffs of specific goods. You can not completely embargo specific nations. You can not try to blockade a nation to cut them up from supplies like the Anaconda plan during the ACW or the Submarine Warfare and British blockade during WW1.

Vicky's economy is basic at best, completely insane at its' worst.

1. DO NOT CHANGE THE MAP. Victoria 2 map is perfect, and should be keept for Victoria 3

The map is problematic. Just some examples:

Eupen-Malmedy was Prussian in 1836 and only became Belgian in 1919 after WW1.

All over the world far too generous frontiers. Patagonia and Chaco were basically empty in 1836, and should be uncolonized. Also there was no unified Argentine in 1836.

LOTS AND LOTS of tags could be added to Africa.

Persia owned parts of Turkmenia until the late 19th century.

Norway should be a puppet under Sweden

The entire Middle Eastern borders are based on the Sykes-Picot agreement and not at all representative of the Ottoman borders.

And that's just skimming over some of the most obvious issues.

6. Do not change the recruitment and revolt system, it is very unike of V2 and should be in V3 too.

Recruting regiments is a total PITA, as is reinforcement. We need a macro-builder akin to EU4 and that regiments can only reinforce from the same province is total insanity.

There is a way to improve the research system of Victoria. If it is possible to make things research only in university. For example, only country with a university build should have the chance to research things. Just a fact, in Albania (it is not in Africa or deep in Asia, but in Europe) only after 1945 we start having university (college), and after a period of time we started building by ourself the military and engineering construction in Albania.

wut
 
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EmpSid

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When I say that the Victoria 3 map should not change, i mean that it should have the same system 3 province = 1 state, and the number of states should not change. It is pointles sometime to make a small island a separate province.

About the recruitment system is the best of all games for these reasons:

1. A military unit always was levied from the same region, even before the roman legion system and in ww2 was near the same. This changed dramatically only after the Vietnam war. Remember even in ww2, allied divisions that landed in Normandy, they didn't mix the military units, there were like canadian divisions, polish divisions etc... and even USA made the same aproach, they had divisions made only from 1 state and not mix with personels from other states. There are a lot of other examples.
2. Soldiers are not a pool of people that you can use them as you like and form in units as you like. Tracking the divisions for the state origin it is more interesting.
3. The Victoria 2 recruitement system help in a simulation of discent in the army. For example, indian division in the british army ca rebel against Great Bretain and join an indian state (During an indian indipendence). No other game has this unice characteristic.
4. We are talking about XIX century, and most of the person had a fealing like if my father was a soldier, i will be a soldier too.
5. Army manpower it is not like 20% of the population, this depends on the regions, some regions are more likely to join the army, and some are more likely to be farmers or busnessman or othe ocupation. Having not a pool recruitment system make the game more like a simulation.

About the research university system, it was first the idea of Empire Total War, and was intersting because made the research tredable.
 

TK-XD-M8

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Sep 9, 2016
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I agree with most of your suggestions @EmpSid; but with a few reservations:

While I don't think the vic2 economy is too bad, it does need some work. @klingonadmiral's suggestions are some good ideas.

The idea with universities would be a good idea, but it should provide a bonus to research.

I'm mixed on the great power restrictions.

Other than that, not bad ideas.
 

ModZero

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UI. So much UI, I feel like just that could bring the game into wider appeal. The biggest one is the (I think, maybe it's just me) obvious one: investment. Let me just say "here's a subsidy of this many pounds for this region, for these things, notify me if it runs out of money," ideally (but I'll be fine without that, I've dealt with worse) the AI investors would actually see that "hey, free money here" and prefer investments into subsidised stuff. I'd consider the map-painting thing from HOI4 to be largely UI too, same thing with macro building of units.

Also a music player.

I kinda like the way pops are bound to regiments, but I'll admit it doesn't work that well in practice. Maybe ideally it would just matter for initial training, and drawing reinforcements from the same pop would be faster/cheaper/had less negative impact on experience (assuming you have relevant mechanics around). A regiment could have a cultural affinity too, so a very mixed one could have a hit to organisation.
 
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