A long thread on primitives and the Americas (editted as of 07/07/21)
- Thread starter FleetingRain
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I dislike the federation mechanic. Federations should be removed alltogether since they just make warfare in the Americas less fun. They also make very little sence historicly speaking since most of the current native american tags already represent federations on their own.
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I have to thoroughly read everything, yet, cause I'm only on my phone - but my first impression is positive
I'd also like to point you to my thread on the same topic, just in case you haven't seen it yet: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...lay-without-completely-new-mechanics.1380858/
I think any dev trying to get some ideas on this topic will find plenty in our threads
I'd also like to point you to my thread on the same topic, just in case you haven't seen it yet: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...lay-without-completely-new-mechanics.1380858/
I think any dev trying to get some ideas on this topic will find plenty in our threads
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Why did you remove some tags, such as Yaqui, Lipan, Assiniboine or Osage?
Would they spawn by event later on?
Pueblo wasn't monarchistic society. They werr, and still are, very egalitarian protosocialistic.
This bonus isnt good for Pueblos
Sorry, didn't read everything, but I've saved this thread, I'll sure read it fully it some point. However, from a quick look, I see you made a conclusion I also once made: native gameplay should be focuses on the empty provinces. They are disorganized, but not uninhabited. This means they are still important as hunting grounds/...
I am currently in the process of making a mod which enhances native gameplay. I am far with my mod, but not near the end. The mod aims to make natives compete each other actively to secure empty provinces under their culture. If they fail to do so, they'll disintegrate. So far, my mod has proved me to have interesting results and gameplay, but I'm struggling to keep it interesting for long enough (European AI take a long time to colonize NA...). Anyway, since the natives can disintegrate, that also means that many tags can be available at the start.
I am currently in the process of making a mod which enhances native gameplay. I am far with my mod, but not near the end. The mod aims to make natives compete each other actively to secure empty provinces under their culture. If they fail to do so, they'll disintegrate. So far, my mod has proved me to have interesting results and gameplay, but I'm struggling to keep it interesting for long enough (European AI take a long time to colonize NA...). Anyway, since the natives can disintegrate, that also means that many tags can be available at the start.
lol oops I forgot the Development map. Added it now.
Anyway. In total, 8 tags were removed. The tl;dr is that Osage was renamed and the other mostly were post-1444 split-offs of other tags and I believed they should only appear as names for any in-game splits, but to elaborate fully:
Tbh my first thought was tying federation mechanics to the empty provinces (something like unorganized natives joining the consolidated tag, either temporarily or permanently, province-wise or army-wise) but I couldn't get it to work on paper so I dropped it. I agree that the mechanic is problematic, but for now I'd rather it's at least useful instead of a throwaway.
Thanks man. And yeah, I remember skimming your thread once but never stopped to read it, guess I'll check it on the weekend.I have to thoroughly read everything, yet, cause I'm only on my phone - but my first impression is positive
I'd also like to point you to my thread on the same topic, just in case you haven't seen it yet: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...lay-without-completely-new-mechanics.1380858/
I think any dev trying to get some ideas on this topic will find plenty in our threads
...I just realized I forgot to add my reasoning for the tags/provinces lol.
Anyway. In total, 8 tags were removed. The tl;dr is that Osage was renamed and the other mostly were post-1444 split-offs of other tags and I believed they should only appear as names for any in-game splits, but to elaborate fully:
Yokotan is a tag that represents all the Chontal Mayan peoples but, as I broke Tabasco area in three tags, they didn't have a place. Should the devs go with my trimmed suggestion, Yokotan could replace the Tabasco tag... no, what am I saying? Tabasco tag clearly should be the Yokotan tag lmao, I'm dumb. Gonna replace it in the next thread update.
Lipan was removed because its culture is no more; I decided to remove them because I couldn't determine their territory between the Coahuiltecos, Mescaleros and other cultures. Honestly, I can't even determine their existence in 1444 as consolidated and separate from other Apachean tags, specially from the Mescalero.
Similarly, I removed the Comanche because they were a post 1500s split-off of the Shoshone. They could be a historical name/tag for a split-off from Shoshone migration however (in fact, I think all the removed tags could). I didn't do this with every post-1444 tag/culture because some are their culture's main/only known tribe, or they cover territory for which I found no one else. For example, I don't know who I'd put in place of the Absaroka and Arikara cultures (the Dakota are not an option), and the proto-Pawnee/Wichita might as well be represented by their namesakes anyway. Meanwhile, as the Comanche are just a split-off, they might as well appear only later on and/or as an easter egg.
This line of thought is what got me to remove the Assiniboine. If the Sioux started getting pushed west by the Ojibwe because of them getting goodies from their French allies, then why would there be Assiniboine in Saskatchewan by 1444? On the other hand, maybe I could have added the Lakota (So the Sioux tag would be the Dakota)... I'll give it a thought, but at best the Assiniboine should be a split-off of the Sioux.
The Fox were removed in the beginning of my research because I had no idea where they should be in the vicinity of the St. Lawrence River (their original area before migrating to Wisconsin). I'll probably re-add them as neighbors to the Kwedech, however, and make them a 2-province (ugh) culture.
The Osage are a bit more complicated because while they are a split-off from another tribe (the Dhegihan), they were one of four splits. So I decided to just rename them to Dhegihan, move them to Kentucky and let them migrate to their hearts' content: Osage/Omaha/Quapaw/Kansa should be possible names for its eventual split-off (but only one as I suggested in OP).
The Kiowa were a one-province culture related to the Pueblo who lived somewhere north of the Black Hills (Badlands area) and only by the 1600s got pushed to Texas by neighboring tribes. I don't like one-culture provinces, specially when they're so isolated from their "cousins", and try to remove/expand them as much as possible; I see no way to do anything with Kiowa in this regard, so I just removed them as a tag and gave their province to Blackfoot culture (as it was historically).
And finally, I "removed" the Yaqui simply because this is a thread I started writing during 1.24 so the Yaqui didn't even exist, and I had already added the Ópata instead. They could be removed in favor of the Yaqui, and tbh I should have done that.
Lipan was removed because its culture is no more; I decided to remove them because I couldn't determine their territory between the Coahuiltecos, Mescaleros and other cultures. Honestly, I can't even determine their existence in 1444 as consolidated and separate from other Apachean tags, specially from the Mescalero.
Similarly, I removed the Comanche because they were a post 1500s split-off of the Shoshone. They could be a historical name/tag for a split-off from Shoshone migration however (in fact, I think all the removed tags could). I didn't do this with every post-1444 tag/culture because some are their culture's main/only known tribe, or they cover territory for which I found no one else. For example, I don't know who I'd put in place of the Absaroka and Arikara cultures (the Dakota are not an option), and the proto-Pawnee/Wichita might as well be represented by their namesakes anyway. Meanwhile, as the Comanche are just a split-off, they might as well appear only later on and/or as an easter egg.
This line of thought is what got me to remove the Assiniboine. If the Sioux started getting pushed west by the Ojibwe because of them getting goodies from their French allies, then why would there be Assiniboine in Saskatchewan by 1444? On the other hand, maybe I could have added the Lakota (So the Sioux tag would be the Dakota)... I'll give it a thought, but at best the Assiniboine should be a split-off of the Sioux.
The Fox were removed in the beginning of my research because I had no idea where they should be in the vicinity of the St. Lawrence River (their original area before migrating to Wisconsin). I'll probably re-add them as neighbors to the Kwedech, however, and make them a 2-province (ugh) culture.
The Osage are a bit more complicated because while they are a split-off from another tribe (the Dhegihan), they were one of four splits. So I decided to just rename them to Dhegihan, move them to Kentucky and let them migrate to their hearts' content: Osage/Omaha/Quapaw/Kansa should be possible names for its eventual split-off (but only one as I suggested in OP).
The Kiowa were a one-province culture related to the Pueblo who lived somewhere north of the Black Hills (Badlands area) and only by the 1600s got pushed to Texas by neighboring tribes. I don't like one-culture provinces, specially when they're so isolated from their "cousins", and try to remove/expand them as much as possible; I see no way to do anything with Kiowa in this regard, so I just removed them as a tag and gave their province to Blackfoot culture (as it was historically).
And finally, I "removed" the Yaqui simply because this is a thread I started writing during 1.24 so the Yaqui didn't even exist, and I had already added the Ópata instead. They could be removed in favor of the Yaqui, and tbh I should have done that.
I honestly have no idea why I changed Prestige to Legitimacy lol. Thanks for the catch.
Yeah, in the end the most difficult aspect in the Americas is dealing with the empty provinces, as we don't have a population system. European slowness was the reason I added the Selfmade reform method so at least they can drop their Primitive status, but short of fully revamping the base mechanics, I don't think you can make a Primitive gameplay enjoyable for the full first half of the game.
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I think this thread is too unwieldy so I tried to reorganize the OP to make it more readable. I still gotta review the maps however.
I am glad that my old topics were mentioned in this thread after 3 years, thanks, after all years I am still waiting for a fix, lol.
Like I said 3 years earlier, America was my favorite continent to play, but the current status is very bad and I can not have fun anymore playing it.
Primitive mechanics, native advancement, reforming religions, etc. are all old mechanics designed and balanced for a old game that dont exist anymore since the introduction of institution mechanics, institutions were a great improvement but native mechanics become obsolete after it.
Your suggestions are good and are more complex than mine suggestions, I tinhk that both could be considered good enough fixes, it depends if the devs want a more complex and complet fix/rework or a more simpler fix/rework.
I like your suggestions and I completly agree that there should exist a new institution before feudalism that everyone, except native americans, start the game with it embraced, "beasts of burden" is a good name for this new institution. The primitive status and their drawbacks would be caused by the absence of this new institution and not caused by a tribal government or a pagan religion, when you finally embrace this new institution the country is no longer considered primitive, but the most important adjust for primitives is:
Primitives can now embrace institutions:
The absence of this possibility is what is less fun about playing natives, every game after dominating your region, you are forced to do nothing for decades (sometimes you need wait more than 1 century), in speed 5, waiting for some european country settle in your borders, in the early days, every country outside Europe needed have a border with a western country to westernize, but now, every country in the world can play their cards right and/or develop provinces to spawn institutions and fix their tech lvl by himself, everyone, with the exception of natives that remain using the old and unfun gameplay of passively waiting for a european border.
I understand that remove totally the primitive tag could cause balance issues, for example, some andean countries would become very rich with their gold provinces in just a few yers in game, but maintaining the existence of primitive tag with their many drawbacks and just removing the restriction in institutions embracement would preserve the early game balance and would enable the player to make a less passive playstyle, and when you embrace the new institution (beasts of burden) you are no longer considered primitive.
Reform native council government or religion should not give for free all neighbours instituions and should not give for free 80% of neighbour tech lvl.
Reform your religion become a thing that you are incentived to do because it give good bonus and not a thing that you are obliged to do to enable institutions embrace, this helps the AI too, the AI is never capable of reform his religion, so, you never see a successfull mesoamerican or andean country in your world, it should be a rare thing but should not be impossible.
Native councils after buying all native advancements and after embracing the new institution ("beasts of burden") should unlock the normal mechanics of govern advancement (the same used by other tribal countries and the same used by siberian native councils), so, they not instantly become monarchies and republics in the first years of colonization and european contact.
I hope that some day the devs fix natives or at least make possible to mod these suggestions in the game, even mod a fix is impossible because primitive mechanics, primitive status and reform native council government/ reform native religion requisites and buffs are hardcoded.
Like I said 3 years earlier, America was my favorite continent to play, but the current status is very bad and I can not have fun anymore playing it.
Primitive mechanics, native advancement, reforming religions, etc. are all old mechanics designed and balanced for a old game that dont exist anymore since the introduction of institution mechanics, institutions were a great improvement but native mechanics become obsolete after it.
Your suggestions are good and are more complex than mine suggestions, I tinhk that both could be considered good enough fixes, it depends if the devs want a more complex and complet fix/rework or a more simpler fix/rework.
I like your suggestions and I completly agree that there should exist a new institution before feudalism that everyone, except native americans, start the game with it embraced, "beasts of burden" is a good name for this new institution. The primitive status and their drawbacks would be caused by the absence of this new institution and not caused by a tribal government or a pagan religion, when you finally embrace this new institution the country is no longer considered primitive, but the most important adjust for primitives is:
Primitives can now embrace institutions:
The absence of this possibility is what is less fun about playing natives, every game after dominating your region, you are forced to do nothing for decades (sometimes you need wait more than 1 century), in speed 5, waiting for some european country settle in your borders, in the early days, every country outside Europe needed have a border with a western country to westernize, but now, every country in the world can play their cards right and/or develop provinces to spawn institutions and fix their tech lvl by himself, everyone, with the exception of natives that remain using the old and unfun gameplay of passively waiting for a european border.
I understand that remove totally the primitive tag could cause balance issues, for example, some andean countries would become very rich with their gold provinces in just a few yers in game, but maintaining the existence of primitive tag with their many drawbacks and just removing the restriction in institutions embracement would preserve the early game balance and would enable the player to make a less passive playstyle, and when you embrace the new institution (beasts of burden) you are no longer considered primitive.
Reform native council government or religion should not give for free all neighbours instituions and should not give for free 80% of neighbour tech lvl.
Reform your religion become a thing that you are incentived to do because it give good bonus and not a thing that you are obliged to do to enable institutions embrace, this helps the AI too, the AI is never capable of reform his religion, so, you never see a successfull mesoamerican or andean country in your world, it should be a rare thing but should not be impossible.
Native councils after buying all native advancements and after embracing the new institution ("beasts of burden") should unlock the normal mechanics of govern advancement (the same used by other tribal countries and the same used by siberian native councils), so, they not instantly become monarchies and republics in the first years of colonization and european contact.
I hope that some day the devs fix natives or at least make possible to mod these suggestions in the game, even mod a fix is impossible because primitive mechanics, primitive status and reform native council government/ reform native religion requisites and buffs are hardcoded.
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Bumping this already knowing I'll have to rewrite it for the newest patch, but maybe the devs haven't seen some of the suggestions here yet.
Today's dev diary makes it seem like this isn't the plan, which kinda bums me out. One of the things that irritates me the most of the New World is that past a certain point it doesn't feel unique to play there. Once you reform as a Native American, you're essentially a European playing on a different continent. I was hoping the changes to Federations would offer up a different playstyle - one which encouraged you to interact with and grow your Federation rather than just using it to gain an extra +10% Land Morale and +1 Diplo Rep.
If Federations disappear after reforming, I wonder what the point is of growing one to begin with. This is especially true with historical Federations like the Iroquois and Huron. It strikes me as strange that these confederacies would disintegrate upon reforming. One would think that if the player were successful at building an alternate history North America, indigenous confederacies should unite into some grander political unit.
I saw that @Groogy was interested in some suggestions in the dev diary thread to make Federations somewhat akin to a series of mini Holy Roman Empires (it would be especially neat to have a centralized AND a decentralize path). I like the idea of having Native American gameplay emphasize the importance of holding intertribal councils as much as warfare. Imagine how satisfying it could be to go down the diplomatic path and have it pay off by being able to piece together a grand confederacy able to take on the Americans or the British ala Pontiac's Rebellion or Tecumseh's Confederacy.
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Updated the OP. Will still need to update the maps etc, but I wanted to put this show on the road because the changes in 1.31 were very impactful (and sometimes heavy-handed, lol tribal dev).