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andxa2

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There is nothing special about the Holy Roman Emperor, it is simply an elective imperial title.
It doesn't show its dignity at all.
I suggest making these improvements:
1. Exclusive interface, noble and gorgeous UI
2. Unique mechanics such as coronation, imperial meetings, special vassal contracts
3. Unique interaction with the Pope
4. Theoretical suzerainty of Christendom as a whole
5. Others, haven't thought of it yet.

PS:Make Italy great again!
123.jpg
 
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There is nothing special about the Holy Roman Emperor, it is simply an elective imperial title.
It doesn't show its dignity at all.
I suggest making these improvements:
1. Exclusive interface, noble and gorgeous UI
2. Unique mechanics such as coronation, imperial meetings, special vassal contracts
3. Unique interaction with the Pope
4. Theoretical suzerainty of Christendom as a whole
5. Others, haven't thought of it yet.

PS:Make Italy great again!
View attachment 838781
Okay and what about the Roman Empire?
 
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I'm fine with it but only if every historica empire gets the same treatment. I'm not keen on certain titles having special mechanics making it inherently superior to all others.

But multiple Imperial DLC for the major empires, HRE, BYZ, Abbasids, Khazars, The major Indian ones, and Perisa!
 
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Okay and what about the Roman Empire?
Roman empire doesn't exist at start, unless you mean byz which should have unique governance
I'm fine with it but only if every historica empire gets the same treatment. I'm not keen on certain titles having special mechanics making it inherently superior to all others.
Not inherently superior but just to play differently to the rest
But multiple Imperial DLC for the major empires, HRE, BYZ, Abbasids, Khazars, The major Indian ones, and Perisa!
Khazars and indians? Why
Also I know eu4 is going down ridiculous alt his route atm but I'd rather ck didn't with extensive zoro persian mechanics before the bread has been buttered in Europe
 
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andxa2

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Okay and what about the Roman Empire?
The Holy Roman Empire and the Byzantine Empire can have "theoretical" suzerainty over Christendom, which is a casus belli.
The Roman Empire SPQR had "de facto" suzerainty over Christendom, that is, it was established after the occupation.
 
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Not inherently superior but just to play differently to the rest
I don't believe that's possible if it's getting significantly more mechanics than all the other empires.

The special election mechanics already puts them apart from the rest. I think people give it a pass because they don't know the intricacies of other empires except maybe the byzantines.
 
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I'm fine with it but only if every historica empire gets the same treatment. I'm not keen on certain titles having special mechanics making it inherently superior to all others.

But multiple Imperial DLC for the major empires, HRE, BYZ, Abbasids, Khazars, The major Indian ones, and Perisa!
Disagree with this and you're incredibly biased and very unreasonable.
The HRE fan boys are quite the bunch..
 
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The Holy Roman Empire and the Byzantine Empire can have "theoretical" suzerainty over Christendom, which is a casus belli.
The Roman Empire SPQR had "de facto" suzerainty over Christendom, that is, it was established after the occupation.
Uhm the Byzantines still do, the real Roman's I mean. The Patriarch of Constantinople, who originally was the "superior" in the Orthodox church, was og "higher tier" than thr bishop of Rome. It wasn't until quite late in church history that the bishop of Rome managed to wrestle itself from the Roman power in Constantinople, very much due to both the fact that western powers were on a long slow rise, with the Frank's and Germans wanting recognition from Constantinople as true Roman's of the west. Not getting that though, the Roman's faced greater and greater threats, their power in Italy was in decline. This gave more and more autonomy to the bishop of Rome, which saw their chance to play both sides, rise as a more independent church, recognizing finally the Germans as emperor of the Romans(the Frank's and Charlemagne tried this earlier but he wanted Constantinople to recognize him as well).

So, they aren't equals, the Roman's is the continuation, uninterrupted, in the east, which we call Byzantines for historical clarity reasons.
The Germans, they are a catholic backed usurper or claimant.
They can be recognized by the catholic world, while the rest of the world including Orthodox and all non catholic faiths will see the the true Roman's as the ones in Constantinople.
Ask a Turk, Arab, Greek, Iranian etc, they won't agree with Catholic opinion, the catholic world has fabricated history, to survive of course, but still fabricated this idea of western Roman's in HRE as true Roman's, to break free from the Emperors grip in the east.

It's complete nonsense, very outdated history to think HRE is actually Roman.

The Byzantine Empire is the lost history to us westerners, and I am a real life catholic of western Europe(very laid back and too liberal for many Catholics, but still catholic)
 
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Uhm the Byzantines still do, the real Roman's I mean.
No its theoretical because of autocephaly and constraints of the state there was no way the Byzantine Emperor was interfering in asturias or brittany eh
The Patriarch of Constantinople, who originally was the "superior" in the Orthodox church, was og "higher tier" than thr bishop of Rome.
Where did you get that from. Constantinople is the last of the pentarchs to be established due to how late Constantinople was established. Antioch, Jerusalem, Alexandria, and Rome.
Due to being the older capital, the site of st paul's death, and the dissemination of imperial power, the Pope held the titles Pontifex Maximus and first amongst equals. With the chalcedon rite the patriarch of Rome held more religious power than the patriarch of Constantinople, even if by proximity to the Imperial seat the patriarch of Constantinople held more political influence
It wasn't until quite late in church history that the bishop of Rome managed to wrestle itself from the Roman power in Constantinople, very much due to both the fact that western powers were on a long slow rise, with the Frank's and Germans wanting recognition from Constantinople as true Roman's of the west. Not getting that though, the Roman's faced greater and greater threats, their power in Italy was in decline. This gave more and more autonomy to the bishop of Rome, which saw their chance to play both sides, rise as a more independent church,
This skips over the lombard conquest of the pentapolis and the donation of pipin helping change the Papacy to a more Frankish than Byzantine angle
recognizing finally the Germans as emperor of the Romans(the Frank's and Charlemagne tried this earlier but he wanted Constantinople to recognize him as well).
Charlemagne was also crowned in contention to Irene of Athens who was a woman and had blinded her own son that she herself had borne
So, they aren't equals, the Roman's is the continuation, uninterrupted, in the east, which we call Byzantines for historical clarity reasons.
The Germans, they are a catholic backed usurper or claimant.
Depends if you see iconoclasts as breaking the chain of succession or not
They can be recognized by the catholic world, while the rest of the world including Orthodox and all non catholic faiths will see the the true Roman's as the ones in Constantinople.
Ask a Turk, Arab, Greek, Iranian etc
3 of those 4 groups will balk at the idea of romans being pagan considering rumi came to mean Christian, so they might not be the best to ask opinions of
, they won't agree with Catholic opinion, the catholic world has fabricated history, to survive of course, but still fabricated this idea of western Roman's in HRE as true Roman's, to break free from the Emperors grip in the east.
What do you mean by fabricated?
It's complete nonsense, very outdated history to think HRE is actually Roman.
The extent to which there's a diarchy fluctuates throughout the mediveal era
The Byzantine Empire is the lost history to us westerners, and I am a real life catholic of western Europe(very laid back and too liberal for many Catholics, but still catholic)
So lost you can watch numerous YouTube videos about it and every paradox game had threads on why it should be called roman empire not Byzantine emoire
 
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Disagree with this and you're incredibly biased and very unreasonable.
The HRE fan boys are quite the bunch..
Sorry I'm having a hard time parsing your reply. Are you saying you disagree with me or that others disagreeing with me are unreasonable?
 
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No its theoretical because of autocephaly and constraints of the state there was no way the Byzantine Emperor was interfering in asturias or brittany eh

Where did you get that from. Constantinople is the last of the pentarchs to be established due to how late Constantinople was established. Antioch, Jerusalem, Alexandria, and Rome.
Due to being the older capital, the site of st paul's death, and the dissemination of imperial power, the Pope held the titles Pontifex Maximus and first amongst equals. With the chalcedon rite the patriarch of Rome held more religious power than the patriarch of Constantinople, even if by proximity to the Imperial seat the patriarch of Constantinople held more political influence

This skips over the lombard conquest of the pentapolis and the donation of pipin helping change the Papacy to a more Frankish than Byzantine angle

Charlemagne was also crowned in contention to Irene of Athens who was a woman and had blinded her own son that she herself had borne

Depends if you see iconoclasts as breaking the chain of succession or not

3 of those 4 groups will balk at the idea of romans being pagan considering rumi came to mean Christian, so they might not be the best to ask opinions of

What do you mean by fabricated?

The extent to which there's a diarchy fluctuates throughout the mediveal era

So lost you can watch numerous YouTube videos about it and every paradox game had threads on why it should be called roman empire not Byzantine emoire
Sorry but if your sources is YouTube I have to tell you that many if them are either incorrect, or very good but follows old ideas, outdated information and is very influenced by the western European perspectives.

You raise a lot of points which are either propeganda of the medieval ages or biased points.

I recommend the History of Byzantium podcast as a start, where you will listen to numerous guests which are professors within the fields, like Anthony Kaldellis.
Also sources not only from Byzantine contemporary historians, but both western and eastern/Islamic sources.

I get what you're trying to say, but you're missing a lot of perspectives, thr bigger picture. You're relying on western perspectives alone, and even fabricated ideas and propeganda.
Also, how is a woman, as emperor, a break in the continuation of the Roman state? That's a catholic argument. Biased.

My sources is Anthonly Kaldellis, Robin Pierson, Sergey Ivanov, Leonara Neville, Sharyn Eastaugh, Peter Frankopan, Frank Whittow and many more. That's where I get my understanding from.
 
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Eh, the point that the Bishop of Rome was older and traditionally superior (albeit in a "First among Equals" way vs. a "I am the overall head of the whole church" way) is pretty indisputable. If your sources tell you otherwise, then you either misunderstood them or need to find better sources.

But more broadly, given that the traditional method of becoming Roman Emperor was just "declare yourself emperor and if necessary win the ensuing battle to make it stick," Charlemagne certainly fulfilled that condition. So did the Latin Empire, for that matter, and they were hardly the only ones who did it by capturing Constantinople by force.

Roman imperial succession was messy by design, and the empire itself changed in form drastically during the period (compare the Empire of Augustus with that of Diocletian, with that of Constantine, with that of Theodosius, with that of Heraclius, with that of Alexios Komnenos, with that of the later Paleologoi...).

So arguing about the "true" Roman Empire is largely pointless. All that can be said is that both the HRE and the Byzantines (and the Latin Empire, during its brief existence) all laid claim to the imperial title, and leave it at that. Power is ultimately what people recognize (and a Roman emperor would certainly have understood that).
 
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Uhm the Byzantines still do, the real Roman's I mean. The Patriarch of Constantinople, who originally was the "superior" in the Orthodox church, was og "higher tier" than thr bishop of Rome. It wasn't until quite late in church history that the bishop of Rome managed to wrestle itself from the Roman power in Constantinople, very much due to both the fact that western powers were on a long slow rise, with the Frank's and Germans wanting recognition from Constantinople as true Roman's of the west. Not getting that though, the Roman's faced greater and greater threats, their power in Italy was in decline. This gave more and more autonomy to the bishop of Rome, which saw their chance to play both sides, rise as a more independent church, recognizing finally the Germans as emperor of the Romans(the Frank's and Charlemagne tried this earlier but he wanted Constantinople to recognize him as well).

So, they aren't equals, the Roman's is the continuation, uninterrupted, in the east, which we call Byzantines for historical clarity reasons.
The Germans, they are a catholic backed usurper or claimant.
They can be recognized by the catholic world, while the rest of the world including Orthodox and all non catholic faiths will see the the true Roman's as the ones in Constantinople.
Ask a Turk, Arab, Greek, Iranian etc, they won't agree with Catholic opinion, the catholic world has fabricated history, to survive of course, but still fabricated this idea of western Roman's in HRE as true Roman's, to break free from the Emperors grip in the east.

It's complete nonsense, very outdated history to think HRE is actually Roman.

The Byzantine Empire is the lost history to us westerners, and I am a real life catholic of western Europe(very laid back and too liberal for many Catholics, but still catholic)
I understand that the Holy Roman Empire is not really Roman. But the fact that they advertise themselves this way should make it easier to get a casus belli.
 
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Anna_Gein

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OMG please not another stupid HRE v.s. Byzance debate by illiterate users ...


Back to OP, I feel it would be great if only an handful of Title could be Empire Tiers. Basically HRE, Byzance and the Caliphate for pre Samarra period and maybe the Seljuk Sultanate if it avoids its anarchy post Malik Shah's reign.

I feel like right now, the few historical Empire titles lack flair and importance by the game mechanics not recognising just how much unique and how superior they were on the legal and the symbolic level. In Western and Central Europe, the Emperor was one level above all the kings including the most powerful ones. And they remained so until the mid 18th century, long after their real power had faded away.

This in tun meant the imperial election's stakes could be much more important than "just" the Empire to become a matter of domination over the entire continent as the Universal Monarchy.

Imo it should be impossible to form Empire level titles at will. Only the few historical one should be possible to create via requirement and decision events.
 
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Axis89

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No its theoretical because of autocephaly and constraints of the state there was no way the Byzantine Emperor was interfering in asturias or brittany eh

Where did you get that from. Constantinople is the last of the pentarchs to be established due to how late Constantinople was established. Antioch, Jerusalem, Alexandria, and Rome.
Due to being the older capital, the site of st paul's death, and the dissemination of imperial power, the Pope held the titles Pontifex Maximus and first amongst equals. With the chalcedon rite the patriarch of Rome held more religious power than the patriarch of Constantinople, even if by proximity to the Imperial seat the patriarch of Constantinople held more political influence

This skips over the lombard conquest of the pentapolis and the donation of pipin helping change the Papacy to a more Frankish than Byzantine angle

Charlemagne was also crowned in contention to Irene of Athens who was a woman and had blinded her own son that she herself had borne

Depends if you see iconoclasts as breaking the chain of succession or not

3 of those 4 groups will balk at the idea of romans being pagan considering rumi came to mean Christian, so they might not be the best to ask opinions of

What do you mean by fabricated?

The extent to which there's a diarchy fluctuates throughout the mediveal era

So lost you can watch numerous YouTube videos about it and every paradox game had threads on why it should be called roman empire not Byzantine emoire
I'll post another reply, shortly answering your points.

Autocephaly was the goal of the bishop of Rome, he had a unique position and history which at times, for much longer than the eastern part of the empire, was not part of the empire. In periods they were alone, in periods they were under Byzantine control or influence, which interfered in their wanted autocephaly. The Byzantine Empire did not want Rome to have that status, but eventually they would permanently for the foreseeing future.
Asturias and Brittany are realms far outside the Byzantine sphere of influence and I don't see your point here.
Eh, the point that the Bishop of Rome was older and traditionally superior (albeit in a "First among Equals" way vs. a "I am the overall head of the whole church" way) is pretty indisputable. If your sources tell you otherwise, then you either misunderstood them or need to find better sources.

But more broadly, given that the traditional method of becoming Roman Emperor was just "declare yourself emperor and if necessary win the ensuing battle to make it stick," Charlemagne certainly fulfilled that condition. So did the Latin Empire, for that matter, and they were hardly the only ones who did it by capturing Constantinople by force.

Roman imperial succession was messy by design, and the empire itself changed in form drastically during the period (compare the Empire of Augustus with that of Diocletian, with that of Constantine, with that of Theodosius, with that of Heraclius, with that of Alexios Komnenos, with that of the later Paleologoi...).

So arguing about the "true" Roman Empire is largely pointless. All that can be said is that both the HRE and the Byzantines (and the Latin Empire, during its brief existence) all laid claim to the imperial title, and leave it at that. Power is ultimately what people recognize (and a Roman emperor would certainly have understood that).
No its not pointless, you have fabricated claims, wannabes, and then you have the state, the continuation of that state, which is in Constantinople.
It's just a fact, Germans and French can't simply call themselves Roman and be Roman.
We can't just create the Roman Empire today and say that it is just as Roman as the classical Roman Empire.

The Roman Empire, thr state, It's laws, its function, it's identity continued uninterrupted in the east, until the fourth Crusade or 1453 which is the more final date.

The Germans just made up a pretend to be Empire, long long after tmit was dead in the east, and also the idea that there was two empires, one of the west and one of the east is wrong.
The Roman's never saw their empires as two, or four. It was more an administrative touch than seperate states.
So with two Emperors dividing the burden, one failed the other survived.

The ideas people seem to have here about the HRE and how belittled the Byzantines have become is a product of propeganda, made by the Catholic church, thr Germans, the Frank's and by more modern historians of the 1800s when Romantisation and Nationalism prospered along with outdated and biased history.
 
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No its not pointless, you have fabricated claims, wannabes, and then you have the state, the continuation of that state, which is in Constantinople.
As opposed to being in Rome, which is where the Empire started? Not to mention the period post-1204 when they weren't in Constantinople, because the Latin Empire was.
It's just a fact, Germans and French can't simply call themselves Roman and be Roman.
Why not? The Greeks did.
We can't just create the Roman Empire today and say that it is just as Roman as the classical Roman Empire.

The Roman Empire, thr state, It's laws, its function, it's identity continued uninterrupted in the east, until the fourth Crusade or 1453 which is the more final date.
The Roman Empire evolved drastically over its lifetime. Augustine would not have recognized the Empire of 1200.

So speaking of an uninterrupted system of laws and function is ridiculous.

Now, the key point here is identity, and I agree that the Byzantines of 1453 identified themselves as the heirs of the Roman Empire of Augustus. But my point is that so did at least some of the HRE folks, and even the Latin Emperors (who did, after all, control Constantinople, unlike the pretenders in Nikaea or Trebizond or Epirus). Identity is ultimately all about perception, and that's even more important for a game like CK. The Byzantines were willing to recognize the imperial claims of the HRE when it suited them. The Nikaeans were even willing to recognize the Latin Empire occasionally, when it was politically convenient.
The Germans just made up a pretend to be Empire, long long after tmit was dead in the east, and also the idea that there was two empires, one of the west and one of the east is wrong.
The Roman's never saw their empires as two, or four. It was more an administrative touch than seperate states.
So with two Emperors dividing the burden, one failed the other survived.
Certainly that would be the later Byzantine position.

But the 800s Franks (and their 900s successors) would have disagreed.

Who was right from a modern-day legal sense doesn't really matter, in the real world. What matters is that by the 900s there were two rulers claiming to be emperors, and that they were occasionally willing to acknowledge each other as such (and other times willing to dispute it, depending on the personalities involved and the needs of the political situation). Sure, we know that the Donation of Constantine was a forgery, but they didn't.

And succession in the Roman Empire had always been a matter of power rather than legalities (something that continued into the Byzantine period and almost to the fall of the empire).
The ideas people seem to have here about the HRE and how belittled the Byzantines have become is a product of propeganda, made by the Catholic church, thr Germans, the Frank's and by more modern historians of the 1800s when Romantisation and Nationalism prospered along with outdated and biased history.
There's no belittling of the Byzantines here. Just a recognition that legitimacy and identity are tricky beasts, and outright saying "the Byzantine Empire is legitimate and the HRE or the Latin (or Trebizond, or Epirus, or any of the other claimants over the centuries) is not" is also taking a position that could use a bit of nuance.

Even more so when we are talking about a computer game (why shouldn't a successful Latin Empire or Empire of Trebizond get the same treatment as the Byzantines, not to mention an HRE that manages to conquer the former Roman territory?).
 
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