A list of every muslims bonuses (next expansion included)

[Liquidstuff]

Good day everyone. I should'nt be the only one but I'm a bit worried about the upcoming buff on muslims. To this day, it's already the religion branch if you can use it's bonuses correctly. Let's get started :


I) Piety
The most obvious ones are the following :
+10% Morale of armies No need to explain
+3% Missionary strength Gives better stability
+20% Fort defense A modifier that is getting more and more important as you can shorten sieges with artillerie barrage.


Or
−10% Technology cost A modifier getting pretty rare with the instituion expansion
+20% National manpower modifier Pretty usefull with professionalism
+20% National tax modifier No need to explain

II) Standard bonuses
+100% Chance of new heir Better than one would think, more heirs means more chances to desinherit meaning better lineage

+10% Cavalry ratio : Good if Horde, Turkish in the early game
+5% Morale of armies : Awesome, stack those modifiers
+10% Morale of navies : Not that usefull but means that you will remain defender of the faith until the end of the game.

III) Dhimmy
After that, we've got the Dhimmis. The best Estate you could hope for. They might be a bit hard for some nation but it's worth it :

+2 Tolerance of heathens
−10% Technology cost

They are easy to get for some nation : Ottomans, Indian nations, Mughals etc ... All y'ouve got to do it make your primary religion a minority. Just let the rebels do their magic ! Bonuses to local taxes, extra good in the early game !

A unique estate also means more interactions, cheaper advisors etc ...

IV) Diwani Script

+1 yearly legitimacy.
+1 yearly horde unity

Some people may not know but you can get an event giving you these bonuses quite easily. Get yourself a level two Artist and the Diwani Script is yours.

Link

V) The education of women

Oh, you're telling me that you are not eligible for the event because you're a Theocracy. Here, have a cooky and

−10% advisors cost

Link

VI) Custodian of the Holy Cities

+0.5 Yearly prestige
+1 Missionary

And you can get this bonus 3 time. In case you had prestige problem and unrest because of low religious unity

VII) Deafender of the Faith

+5% Morale of armies
+5% Morale of navies
+5% Technology cost
−0.025 Monthly war exhaustion
+1 Yearly prestige
+1 Missionary
+0.5 Yearly devotion

And all that for 500 ducats, must buy !

VIII) Ruler related decision

Many decisions related to your ruler. If your lucky, here is what you can grab :

+1% missionary strength
+0.5 yearly prestige.
−1 national unrest.
−5% technology cost
+1% missionary strength
+5% national tax modifier
−5% idea cost

Link for more details.

IX) Islamic Schools

And then there is the dev diary of the 12th of september.

I'm pretty sure I forgot some but I'll fill in next time.



As you can see, Muslims have an overwhelming amount of bonuses compared to other religions that will lead in unbalanced situations especially in mustiplayer. Now, this is my point of view but I'd quite appreciate something to tone their bonuses down.



Edit : not finished, miss clicked

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Whether it's actually the best is debatable (a couple Christian faiths are arguably better). That said, you've left out the Dhimmi estate, potential to run defender of the faith, and the triggered modifiers for holding Rome, Mecca/Medina, and Jerusalem.

Although most nations aside Ottomans struggle to get it early, there is also the "unify Islam" decision, plus a bunch of minor/temporary decisions based on ruler skills.

Despite the MoH nerf to Sunni all 3 Islam branches are still among the game's better religions, only out-competed by stuff like Coptic, or Catholic HRE plays, and maybe Orthodox. Hindu can make a case too but it's giving up a lot just for that 10% core cost reduction.

 

[hashinshin]

Orthodox is still so freakishly overpowered in vanilla that they'll be a good match for Muslims. Protestant in vanilla is also a match for them.

Really the only crappy religions will be Catholic, Confucian, and the pagan religions like Animist totemist etc.

Your Dhimmi argument is a bit silly considering very few people actually try to use them. I'm not quite sure what you're saying here? Cossacks blow the FUCK out of Dhimmi so if you argue with estates, then Eastern-Orthodox is SIGNIFICANTLY stronger than Muslim-Shia. (To be clear, a Cossack estate gives an effective 30% cavalry combat right now. It actually breaks the game with how OP it is.)

Consider that a PERFECT Shia has 15% morale, 10% shock damage, -10% shock damage received. Orthodox is 33% manpower, 5% discipline, 10% manpower recovery. They're about equal, and Shia still has a huge chance of losing either the shock damage or shock damage received if other countries are killed, AND it takes admin every 20 years to maintain.

Reasonably the following can be argued:

Catholic sucks. Really. Hard. Unfortunately Catholic countries get last jousting journament (+10% morale, +1 army tradition) and crusade (+30% manpower, +1 prestige, +10% morale) that basically defeats any advantage Muslim countries get until Protestant hits, then Protestant beats current Islam.

Fetishist sucks too.

Confucian sucks REALLY REALLY hard.

Shinto is.. a bit underpowered maybe. Not by much. (Their 20% durability event is pretty fucked.)

If last jousting tournament got nerfed I think there would be more argument.

 

[hashinshin]

Also, from a multiplayer perspective I think it's pretty clear that Islamic countries get blown out right now. All of India converts to Hindu, SEA converts to Hindu, Vajrayana is the only religion that can compete maybe sorta kinda. Islamic countries have weaker NIs, worse starting positions, less development, no institution spawns, and until awhile ago didn't even get the moors event to match byzantine influx.

Last jousting tournament beats the muslim unit pip advantage early game (giving an average of +1 general pip, 10% morale, enough tradition for another +5% morale, and chances to roll 100 tradition generals.)

The Cossack estate is completely busted. Orthodox is completely busted. Protestant has SO MUCH utility it kills Islam dead in the water.

Islam isn't just the Ottomans. Yes, Ottomans are super OP, but they are hardly the entirety of Islam. Which country other than Ottomans is strong? Persia, maybe? But compare Persia to Poland and laugh.

I guess the upcoming QQ changes might make them strong? But the second you lose tribal federation government you're merely a slightly weaker Poland, and Hungary is still stronger early game. (Not that that's a bad thing, I actually think QQ is gonna be super powerful!)

 

[evilcat]

I like Orthodox more, since you can still get high Piety, and have your favorite Icon.
Coptic is also strong if you get 5 holy sites.

Dhimi are somehow hard to achieve high influence.
Low Piety Humanist Muslim are somehow fun, and there are some religions without soul (Taoist? ) but i would not worry about Muslim dominance.

 

[Zaddy]

Catholic sucks. Really. Hard.

Catholic is already a top tier religion just by virtue of being in a privileged faith (read: Christianity) and allows you to sit at +3 stab forever and have a shot at OP Curia control, with guaranteed Curia once you eat Europe. Plus the other assorted nice stuff you can spend popemana on, makes Catholic a top tier SP religion. In MP it's obviously outclassed by the 10% morale from Reformed and 5% morale and 2.5% disc from Protestant.

If you're not blobbing, sure, Reformed and Protestant is better, but if you aren't blobbing does it really matter that Catholic sucks?

 

[Zaddy]

As for the OP, I think Catholic has all of that beat, easily. Permanent +3 stab, Curia Control, +1 Dip Rep, +15% National Tax, +1 Yearly Prestige, +1 Yearly Legitimacy, PLUS half the stuff you listed there (Conquest of Jerusalem etc, Defender of the Faith). If your point is that these religions are arbitrarily buffed insanely high compared to the non-Abrahamic faiths, sure. If you're complaining that Islam is gonna be OP compared to Christian religions, you're gonna need to bring more to the table than that. Catholic blows pretty much everything except Coptic and MAYBE Hindu out of the water in single player IMO.

 

[Zephyrum]

Islam is definetely going to surpass the better christian religions after the DLC buffs, but at this point I'd rather see the remaining religions be given more power and flavor, or at least reasons to pick them.

Jewish, Zoroastrian, Sikh, Animist, Totemist have absolutely no flavor.

The forms of Buddhism got a massive buff but are still tragically weak since Karma balance is hard to maintain.

Norse is Hindu nerfed to the ground: no MP boost events and pretty bad deities.

And then, the new Shintos and Confucians. They're not bad, but they are awfully slow. 33 years to harmonize! 30 years between the incidents!

 

[Zaddy]

Islam is definetely going to surpass the better christian religions after the DLC buffs

I don't see what Islam gets that beats

+1 Diplomats
+1 Yearly prestige
−10% Stability cost modifier
+2 Possible advisors
−20% Advisor cost
+1 Leader(s) without upkeep
−20% Aggressive expansion impact
−5% Technology cost

from Curia Control PLUS:

+3% Global trade power
+15% Foreign spy detection
−3 National unrest
+15% National tax modifier
+1.5% Missionary strength
−0.06 Yearly corruption
+15% Institution spread
+1.5 Yearly devotion

from +3 stability (which you should be sitting on with Catholic) PLUS any combination of:

+15% National Tax Modifier
+1 Yearly Legitimacy
-1 Interest per Annum (!) and -0.1 Yearly Inflation
+1 Diplomatic Reputation
+1 Yearly Prestige
+15% Manpower Recovery Speed
and the option to buy +1 mercantilism

PLUS the option to call Crusades and excommunications
PLUS the option to play around with HRE shenanigans at least 80-90 years early.

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So, with that in mind, what is Islam getting that beats Catholic?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

MP vs SP are different beasts. I gave advice for SP. In MP Islam is still among the better options, but arguably weaker than Protestant/Reformed. Is Cossacks tied to Orthodoxy or to Eastern tech group? I thought it was the latter, in which case you'd not factor it.

Stuff like Tengri/Fetish/Confucian, tolerable in SP, is junk when you need to max out troop quality. At least the pagan stuff can easily switch.

 

[Zaddy]

MP vs SP are different beasts. I gave advice for SP. In MP Islam is still among the better options, but arguably weaker than Protestant/Reformed. Is Cossacks tied to Orthodoxy or to Eastern tech group? I thought it was the latter, in which case you'd not factor it.

Stuff like Tengri/Fetish/Confucian, tolerable in SP, is junk when you need to max out troop quality. At least the pagan stuff can easily switch.

Oh yeah, don't get me wrong, we're on the same wavelength here. I don't think I would ever stay Catholic in an MP game, even if I was the last Catholic and was guaranteed Curia. Islam is going to be very good for MP, even better than it already was. I'm talking purely SP, where I think the very good Islam is absolutely dominated by Catholic.

 

[Zephyrum]

from Curia Control

IF you permanently control the Curia. In other words, play the game's RNG, not piss the pope off, and basically have a no-go zone on wherever the battlepope decides to expand. It's not hard to maximize, but it still demands some luck.

And that's on Singleplayer only.

I don't see what Islam gets that beats
+3% Global trade power
+15% Foreign spy detection
−3 National unrest
+15% National tax modifier
+1.5% Missionary strength
−0.06 Yearly corruption
+15% Institution spread
+1.5 Yearly devotion

from +3 stability (which you should be sitting on with Catholic)

You know you don't have to be Catholic to raise stability, right? >_> Mine's always at +2 or higher even without the Curia.

PLUS the option to call Crusades and excommunications

...Which lasts for just two ages.

PLUS the option to play around with HRE shenanigans at least 80-90 years early.

That, and PUs, are the decisive factor for Christians being better right now. That said, these and Curia Control are something you'll likely not get easily done on Multiplayer.

+15% National Tax Modifier
+1 Yearly Legitimacy
-1 Interest per Annum (!) and -0.1 Yearly Inflation
+1 Diplomatic Reputation
+1 Yearly Prestige
+15% Manpower Recovery Speed
and the option to buy +1 mercantilism

Legitimacy/Prestige are pretty useless, and the manpower recovery speed ends when you peace out your wars if I recall. And it's unlikely you'll be able to keep up 3 or so of these active all at once without really placating the pope while not going for Curia Control. The mercantilism is nice, though.

So, with that in mind, what is Islam getting that beats Catholic?

-Converting other people's provinces;
-The Schools.

Just a reminder of what Schools bring:

Sunni gets either:
-Tech cost -5%
-AE Impact -10%
-Development cost -10%
-Merchant +1

Shia gets either:
-Legitimacy/Unity/Devotion +1 (0.5 republican tradition)
-Shock damage +10%
-Shock damage received -10%

Both of them also have the ability to either drop corruption by 2 (essentially a free loan with Debase) or get a flat manpower jump immediately, depending on piety type.

So, with that in mind, what is Islam getting that beats Catholic?

Consistency.

Catholics' mechanics are oftentimes tied with luck, and are considerably weaker in Multiplayer, where gaming the pope/HRE/dynasty game is a lot rougher.

Orthodox could do really well in MP because of the crazy power that high PA with icons brought, but ultimately this advantage is not as powerful as the new boosts that Muslims will have permanently active, as well as their piety abilities.

Is Cossacks tied to Orthodoxy or to Eastern tech group? I thought it was the latter, in which case you'd not factor it.

Both, you have to be christian AND eastern.

 

[Zaddy]

IF you permanently control the Curia. In other words, play the game's RNG, not piss the pope off, and basically have a no-go zone on wherever the battlepope decides to expand. It's not hard to maximize, but it still demands some luck.

Not if you blob and eat all the Catholics. It's not an early game bonus for sure, but when you get Catholic going, its by far the best religion.

And that's on Singleplayer only.

Sure, again, I'm not disputing Catholic is more or less a joke in SP.

You know you don't have to be Catholic to raise stability, right? >_> Mine's always at +2 or higher even without the Curia.

Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Buying stab beyond +1 with your precious admin points is not at all a good idea IMO. The stab button with Catholic converts pope mana into admin, which is by far the most important point type in the game. You should be coring land with that admin, not buying stab.

...Which lasts for just two ages.

The most important and powerbase building ages, yeah. And you're applying "only" to a period of time that covers half the game, and by far the most important one. Call me unconvinced.

That, and PUs, are the decisive factor for Christians being better right now. That said, these and Curia Control are something you'll likely not get easily done on Multiplayer.

I won't dispute this, you won't be getting any of this in MP.

Legitimacy/Prestige are pretty useless, and the manpower recovery speed ends when you peace out your wars if I recall. And it's unlikely you'll be able to keep up 3 or so of these active all at once without really placating the pope while not going for Curia Control. The mercantilism is nice, though.

When I'm keeping my conversions constantly going, I can easily keep the good boni going (essentially the dip rep mostly) plus keeping stab up and keeping the curia.

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Don't get me wrong, the new Islam mechanics are good, both in SP and MP. In SP though? Catholic still blows that out of water. In MP though, sure, Islam will have an edge over Reformed/Protestant, and just stomp on Catholic and pretty much everything else.

 

[Liquidstuff]

As for the OP, I think Catholic has all of that beat, easily. Permanent +3 stab, Curia Control, +1 Dip Rep, +15% National Tax, +1 Yearly Prestige, +1 Yearly Legitimacy, PLUS half the stuff you listed there (Conquest of Jerusalem etc, Defender of the Faith). If your point is that these religions are arbitrarily buffed insanely high compared to the non-Abrahamic faiths, sure. If you're complaining that Islam is gonna be OP compared to Christian religions, you're gonna need to bring more to the table than that. Catholic blows pretty much everything except Coptic and MAYBE Hindu out of the water in single player IMO.

You can"t controll the Curia in multiplayer. You're gonna need to bring more to the table to argue that any religion has that many available bonuses.

I mean, yes, catholics can get lot's of bonuses but they are lackluster compared to the bonuses islam gets. -25% tech cost, how is that even fair ?

 

[Liquidstuff]

Hindu has what : -6% tech cost, a bit of tolerance, a bit of stability cost, 5% discipline and siege ability. Excuse me but my choice is done.

Reformed : Tolerance of heretics, missionary strengh that you don't need. Morale of navies and Armies and sometimes a bit of money at the same time. And that's pretty much it.

I don't particularly talk about it's comparaison with Christian.

 

[Emoneh]

Not if you blob and eat all the Catholics. It's not an early game bonus for sure, but when you get Catholic going, its by far the best religion.

By the time you've eaten all the Catholics religion is pretty much irrelevant because you've won the game already, barring edge cases like WC speedruns. Strong early game bonuses are much better than this'll be really good once I've conquered two thirds of Europe. Making comparisons assuming you have permanent Curia control and all the Papal bonuses is pretty disingenuous.

 

[Zephyrum]

Not if you blob and eat all the Catholics. It's not an early game bonus for sure, but when you get Catholic going, its by far the best religion.

By the time you're consistently ruling the Curia forever, AE Impact and some other major boosts that Catholic has are already relatively weaker than they'd be early on. For Sunnis, the vast majority of these buffs are essentially immediate.

Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Buying stab beyond +1 with your precious admin points is not at all a good idea IMO. The stab button with Catholic converts pope mana into admin, which is by far the most important point type in the game. You should be coring land with that admin, not buying stab.

A good chunk of the disasters no longer tick at +2 stab, and some start ticking if you pass a day at 0 after a stabhit, and the stabcost to +2 is still not too high - specially since you'll likely grab a few stabcost modifiers.

If I'm up to date with admin tech and 0% OE, I'd rather take an extra stab and use a vassal next war, though that's maybe because I'm rebel-paranoid.

The most important and powerbase building ages, yeah. And you're applying "only" to a period of time that covers half the game, and by far the most important one. Call me unconvinced.

You could argue that, but then again a good chunk of the catholic boosts, as mentioned before, are not quite something you'll be consistently getting early on. In short, you'll eventually rule the curia, but by then you'll not be able to crusade, for one.

I won't dispute this, you won't be getting any of this in MP.

Yeah, in Singleplayer it's definetely considerably more powerful since it's consistency is a lot easier to control. But Singleplayer is still not it all. And while Islam is a good chunk ahead in MP, in SP they're not half bad either, and are about to become a very solid option, one that's competing for top 3 religions for sure.

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Don't get me wrong, the new Islam mechanics are good, both in SP and MP. In SP though? Catholic still blows that out of water. In MP though, sure, Islam will have an edge over Reformed/Protestant, and just stomp on Catholic and pretty much everything else.

I wouldn't put it as "blows that out of the water". They're still very much a powerhouse, and extremely powerful. Even further, one thing that wasn't mentioned is that they also have the easiest/most consistent way to convert themselves to whatever other religions. Even in the case of Catholic being better when you can rule the curia - just start out muslim, make use of your absurdly powerful bonuses, then convert whenever you're pretty big and in Europe.