A House Divided: Why No Taiping Rebellion?

[kingofparades]

I would rather Paradox spend time making the game engine better(something that is hard for modders to do) then spend the time getting the details right(something that is easy for modders to do).

So would I. I would just disagree on whether the taiping rebellion is "details." I'm not talking about a system to make sure the taiping rebellion happens, which could POSSIBLY take "a week," in arathian's words, but simply having it exist in 1861, "close enough" to being accurate for the time. I doubt simply adding the country, and giving it some troops would take someone familiar with the workings of the game more than a couple hours.

 

[Arathian]

So would I. I would just disagree on whether the taiping rebellion is "details." I'm not talking about a system to make sure the taiping rebellion happens, which could POSSIBLY take "a week," in arathian's words, but simply having it exist in 1861, "close enough" to being accurate for the time. I doubt simply adding the country, and giving it some troops would take someone familiar with the workings of the game more than a couple hours.

it isn't as simple as you might think.

The war needs to drag on somehow. Drug on enough for either side to win (since both's objective was to conquer the other) + nobody knows what a huge war would do to the global economy (woooo for not having a single small arm for the next decade!)

 

[kingofparades]

Well, it should only last for a couple more years without player intervention.

 

[KonradRichtmark]

Well, Victoria 2 *is* a game about the Industrial Revolution and the sociopolitical mayhem that happened in parallel to it, partly because of it. North America was smack in the middle of those developments, while most of that only started happening in China towards the very end of the game period. So it makes game design sense to prioritize the ACW over Taiping.

 

[unmerged(250188)]

It's because ACW will sell more copies in the US. It's a simple business strategy.

 

[kingofparades]

Why do people pretend there's some sort of "Taiping rebellion OR American Civil War" choice paradox had to make? A small amount of time to include Taiping in the 1861 scenario wouldn't actively REDUCE copies sold, and I'm sure many players would enjoy trying to reverse the course of the Taiping rebellion which is just starting to lose. I actually intended it as my first game.

 

[Sathariel]

It's because ACW will sell more copies in the US. It's a simple business strategy.

This. Paradox is not on a mission to teach and represent every single historical event. They're a rather small company, with limited resources trying to earn some money for their work. It's quite obvious they will aim their products towards the places where they got the highest sales (Europe/US) and that those places are more detailed in their games.

 

[kingofparades]

I understand that they are more detailed. What I do not understand is when events like these are not detailed AT ALL. This is not minutiae, the taiping rebellion was a bit of a big deal, and they should have done SOMETHING, even if it was just putting nationalist rebels there.

 

[damnt512]

well, i really hope in 2.2 PI will add the taiping rebellion and do some tweaks to keep the war going for years with many casualties for both side or you wouldn't call it taiping rebellion

 

[unmerged(75409)]

The Taiping event is something that only affected China. If you check out the AAR section you'll see that China is not exactly the most-played nation in V2.

I honestly don't care about the Taiping rebellion, it may have been a monumental bloodletting event but let's be honest, this is nothing unique at all, *EVERYTHING* in Chinese history revolves around massive and pointless blootbaths every few decades. It's just one rebellion they had, like the dozens of generic bloody rebellions you get playing China in V2. There is no international intrigue involved, no impact on industrial or social revolutions anywhere outside China. If you don't play China then you are not affected by this event at all, it's just something you watch for a while.

It's something for a "China Improvement Pack" mod like the one people did for HoI2.

 

[podcat]

I'm not talking about a system to make sure the taiping rebellion happens, which could POSSIBLY take "a week," in arathian's words, but simply having it exist in 1861, "close enough" to being accurate for the time.

as Naselus said earlier, we are more interested in a historically flavored sandbox. We did discuss it, but it would require religious rebels - something we didnt have time to implement support for. Doing specific events etc is flavor details, and I still think we did the right thing working on more core game mechanic changes (because its either one or the other). Also, I'm pretty sure there will be a community mod giving you some taiping flavor within the month.

 

[kingofparades]

The Taiping event is something that only affected China. If you check out the AAR section you'll see that China is not exactly the most-played nation in V2.

Isn't that a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy? If china isn't interesting to play, nobody's going to play china. And of COURSE it didn't have any effect on anything... the side that would have changed things LOST! But that wouldn't necessarily HAPPEN every game.

EDIT:

as Naselus said earlier, we are more interested in a historically flavored sandbox. We did discuss it, but it would require religious rebels - something we didnt have time to implement support for. Doing specific events etc is flavor details, and I still think we did the right thing working on more core game mechanic changes (because its either one or the other). Also, I'm pretty sure there will be a community mod giving you some taiping flavor within the month.

I don't think they DO have to be religious rebels. Nationalist rebels that then have a christian state would work just as well. And as far as events, (assuming you literally mean events as the game mechanic), I don't think anyone is asking for something like the american civil war if you start in 1836. I simply feel that in the start date where the taiping rebellion is ALREADY GOING ON, it should have SOME representation.

 

[LodovicoAriosto]

Taiping rebellion was a major event of global consequences, no doubt about it. I believe it should be included sooner or later in vanilla AHD, not because I want them to include it (because mods will do it) but because PI should be glad to see people playing vanilla, at least sometimes.

I don't think it is a good company policy to get used to the fact that increasing number of people don't play your games unmodded.

Personally, I played lots of vanilla EU2, HoI2, CK1, Vicky 1. Of course I played mods most of the time but for example in multiplayer vanilla was kind of standard in these games.

Not anymore - since EU3 to HoI3 to Vicky2 I barely play vanilla versions at all, even in multiplayer. People take time and care to get same versions of mods just to avoid vanilla in MP. They play vanilla only a couple of days after release, then eagerly wait for mods. I am ok with this but IMO PI should not be because it is risky to offer only a base frame for further modding instead of a full fledged game which EU2 or HoI2 or Vicky 1 were.

 

[unmerged(75409)]

Isn't that a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy? If china isn't interesting to play, nobody's going to play china. And of COURSE it didn't have any effect on anything... the side that would have changed things LOST! But that wouldn't necessarily HAPPEN every game.

If the rebels had won, China would have gotten a new dynasty, like they did many times before, and life would have gone on.

China isn't played much because it is a micromanagement challenge and a rebel nightmare, not because people feel they miss the Taiping rebellion.

 

[unmerged(75409)]

Taiping rebellion was a major event of global consequences, [...]

How so? Please explain how that event, bloody as it was, affected anything outside of China.

 

[kingofparades]

If the rebels had won, China would have gotten a new dynasty, like they did many times before, and life would have gone on.

A new dynasty with massive policy and administrative differences that likely would have made hell for any westerners trying to influence china. Looking at a lot of the things the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom had going on, it was practically eight tenths of the way to westernization.

 

[KonradRichtmark]

If the rebels had won, China would have gotten a new dynasty, like they did many times before, and life would have gone on.

Except that the new dynasty would have adhered to a heterodox variant of an utterly foreign religion, and a socially revolutionary creed that sought to overthrow (from a traditional Chinese perspective) self-evident truths that had stood through almost every previous dynastic change.

 

[LordTempest]

If the rebels had won, China would have gotten a new dynasty, like they did many times before, and life would have gone on.

If the Bolsheviks had won, Russia would have gotten a new dynasty, like they did a few times before, and life would have gone on.

 

[KonradRichtmark]

And what Paradox have stated since forever is that they aren't making a historical simulation, they're making a history-flavoured sandbox game. Some people like more historical flavour or determinism, some people prefer less.

While I agree fully with this point, I don't think it suggests against the inclusion of Taiping. In one of our discussions in the modding section you made a case for (and quite convinced me) how, given conditions in China in 1836, something Taiping-ish was inevitable to happen. So putting the dominoes in place that trigger Taiping upon falling is entirely consistent with sandbox.

Game design economics is really the only valid case against Taiping inclusion that I've seen. And game design economics is really by itself a sufficient argument. Acknowledging economic facts is, after all, the reason why Paradox still exists. Just like any other corporation. When you start ignoring economic facts, you get Duke Nukem (Takes) Forever.

 

[Sathariel]

If the Bolsheviks had won, Russia would have gotten a new dynasty, like they did a few times before, and life would have gone on.

To be fair Russia just went from one authoritarian, expansionist, aggresive, police-state into another. So probably not the best example .