A House Divided: Why No Taiping Rebellion?

[kingofparades]

Religious rebels would be a huge problem to properly simulate. You really end up courting controversy if you go out and try and simulate ethnic and religious conflict in a realistic manner. Best just to leave it alone.

Yes, that is part of why we are suggesting the Taiping rebellion is represented with nationalists, I think.

Im not expert but Hong was trying to establish a kingdom, similar to the Renaissance Vatican with himself in power.
The nationalists would be trying to gain take control of their cores, which would be most of Southern China. A house divided has divided China up so it may be a
challenge to implement.

I believe he saw himself as having been sent to remove the qing from power, so presumably he would want to "replace" china. Once could either have an event that made the supstates be Taiping substates after a Taiping victory, or you could have them left independent, giving great powers a chance to gobble up chunks while the Taiping race to unite them.

 

[Kalelovil]

If they exist as separate nation in the 1861 start date, what's to stop the two sides just signing a white peace?

 

[Jec]

Same thing stopping Union and Confederacy from signing a white peace, I suppose.

 

[Rangergxi]

Same thing stopping Union and Confederacy from signing a white peace, I suppose.

Well.. the Christians start as rebels..


Also, the Confederacy and Union always sign a white peace in my games... there is normally 2 civil wars. -_-

 

[kingofparades]

Nothing's stopping them from signing a white peace, although they'll probably go at it again as soon as the truce is up, which honestly seems entirely appropriate

 

[LordTempest]

Nothing's stopping them from signing a white peace, although they'll probably go at it again as soon as the truce is up, which honestly seems entirely appropriate

I really think there should be some kind of Treaty of London type decision for the US if the CSA wins the Civil War. Having a resumption of the civil war every 5 years isn't at all appropriate.

 

[kingofparades]

The resumption of the civil war every five years, no, but the resumption of the taiping war every five years? much more so. Although a treaty for it would also be nice.

 

[unmerged(384835)]

On the point that V2 is less historically-based than V1: fine. No problem. I understand this. They did the same thing with EU3, and I don't mind.

But it would be great if Paradox could just make sure that the start dates (both 1836 and 1861) are as historically accurate as possible, and that would mean simulating Taiping in some way. The Heavenly Kingdom rebellion didn't just cost a horrendous number of human lives, it fatally weakened the Qing Empire and that laid the seeds of the end of 4000-year imperial rule in China. It matters.

These things do matter. However, Criticism of a game has to be fair . V2 simulates diplomacy, economics, sphere of influence, etc on a macro level where you get to make policy decisions.

re: original post , there are many ways you can bring about rebellions and with AHD the means to do that have increased. Set up your own scenario, try and get the Pops to rebel within X number of years. Agitate your Pops in any way you want.

 

[colinljx]

I still believe adding the Taiping nation in the south will do just fine for now. Replace most/half of Gui (the substate in southern China) with a new Taiping nation should be historical enough and doesn't involve too much work for a patch.

 

[kingofparades]

It should also have some of china proper, since the capital was in nanjing.

 

[Arilou]

These things do matter. However, Criticism of a game has to be fair . V2 simulates diplomacy, economics, sphere of influence, etc on a macro level where you get to make policy decisions.

re: original post , there are many ways you can bring about rebellions and with AHD the means to do that have increased. Set up your own scenario, try and get the Pops to rebel within X number of years. Agitate your Pops in any way you want.

Except that in 1861 the revolt is already happening.

 

[colinljx]

It should also have some of china proper, since the capital was in nanjing.

Just checked the map. So southern half of Chinese Empire (core area) and northern half of Gui?

 

[kingofparades]

that sounds appropriate to me

 

[KonradRichtmark]

The resumption of the civil war every five years, no, but the resumption of the taiping war every five years? much more so. Although a treaty for it would also be nice.

And what exactly is inappropriate about a resumption of the Civil War after five years? If the Union wants to reunify the country, it's going to try whenever it thinks it has a good chance. The only thing that could prevent it would be international recognition of CSA sovereignty, something that wouldn't magically happen simply if the South would win. Granted, a Southern victory would put it in a better position to jockey for recognition, but it wouldn't be a sure thing by any means.

 

[Earl Uhtred]

Much as I support including Taiping, you have to wonder how such an ephemeral state, with such a shallow base of support and an ideology that was dramatically at odds with traditional Chinese culture, could realistically have extended its power across the whole of the country and maintained it. As it was, after their stunning early victories they vacillated in the south while the rebellion gradually lost cohesion and moment slipped away. With anti-Qing sentiment, the movement's #1 recruiting sergeant, removed, any Taiping state victorious even on a regional level would surely have fallen to the same centrifugal forces that sundered the far more credible Republic in the next century.

The 'progressive' measures that have been listed seem to come either from desperation (female conscription, outreach to Western powers), a messianic drive for purity (abolition of drug use) or to be basically symbolic (foot binding).

There is no way they should be represented as Protestant, in any case. 'Taiping Christian' at best but if the Mormons are pagan, so can the Taiping be.

 

[LordTempest]

Much as I support including Taiping, you have to wonder how such an ephemeral state, with such a shallow base of support and an ideology that was dramatically at odds with traditional Chinese culture, could realistically have extended its power across the whole of the country and maintained it.

One could say the same thing of the Republic and the People's Republic. The truth is, we will never know.

The 'progressive' measures that have been listed seem to come either from desperation (female conscription, outreach to Western powers), a messianic drive for purity (abolition of drug use) or to be basically symbolic (foot binding).

The banning of foot binding wasn't symbolic. Firstly, foot binding was practised mostly by the Han middle class, not the Hakka lower classes of whom the Taipings drew most of their support from, at least at first. Secondly, it was a major source of contention between the (mostly Protestant) foreign missionaries, of whom Hong Xiuquan and the Taipings drew much of their "ideology" from, at least at first, and the Han Chinese. Hence, most Taipings viewed foot binding as either an alien custom or a reprehensible one, or both.

There is no way they should be represented as Protestant, in any case. 'Taiping Christian' at best but if the Mormons are pagan, so can the Taiping be.

Aren't they [the Mormons] Protestant in Vicky II? I know they were Pagan in Vicky.

 

[Panjer]

I really think there should be some kind of Treaty of London type decision for the US if the CSA wins the Civil War. Having a resumption of the civil war every 5 years isn't at all appropriate.

A thousand times this, the Confederacy is pretty much doomed otherwise if played by the AI.

Except that in 1861 the revolt is already happening.

And was pretty much a done deal.

 

[Faeelin]

Much as I support including Taiping, you have to wonder how such an ephemeral state, with such a shallow base of support and an ideology that was dramatically at odds with traditional Chinese culture, could realistically have extended its power across the whole of the country and maintained it. As it was, after their stunning early victories they vacillated in the south while the rebellion gradually lost cohesion and moment slipped away. With anti-Qing sentiment, the movement's #1 recruiting sergeant, removed, any Taiping state victorious even on a regional level would surely have fallen to the same centrifugal forces that sundered the far more credible Republic in the next century.

This is unlike the society based on enslaving people because of the color of their skin, and whose destruction was accomplished by part by the 179,000 black soldiers who helped make Atlanta burn, right?

The 'progressive' measures that have been listed seem to come either from desperation (female conscription, outreach to Western powers), a messianic drive for purity (abolition of drug use) or to be basically symbolic (foot binding).

This thread is fantastic and continues to show an insight into the Heathen Cathay. Obviously they can do nothing right. Reaching out to their perceived ideological co-religionists? Desperation? Abolition of a drug that was a plague on Chinese society? A messianic drive for purity. Ending the physical abuse of women? Symbolic.

I'm persuaded. China closed its door to the world after 1433, and the presence of several hundred thousand Chinese across Southeast Asia over the next few centuries can probably be attributed to shipwrecks. Lots of shipwrecks. No Chinese would've gone to those places voluntarily, after all. And we know the Chinese are incapable of adopting western ideas, which is why in 1911 and 1949 we just saw the installation of the Sun and Mao dynasties.

I am going to duck out of this thread, because any discussion of why the game is inaccurate appears to skirt being off limits. But I think I'll hold off buying this til it's gone down in price.

 

[podcat]

wow 10 pages...

 

[RedRalphWiggum]

Everybody say thanks to podcat. Instead of the thread being closed, you get a nice screenshot!