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King

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Here is the deal. For those of you who are keen followers of Paradox games will know that our fans have made it clear to us that they would like our games to be of higher quality on release. We, of course, listen to our fans and take this challange very seriously. Our solution is more tight focus on what we have said we will deliver and less feature creep. Things will get missed, I freely admit this, but what you must consider is what would we have not done for every feature you like us to add? Essentially we would have to have either cut another feature or reduced the ammount of bug fixing time at the end of the project. Neither of these we felt was an option so the Taiping rebellion is not it.
 

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I'm not talking about a system to make sure the taiping rebellion happens, which could POSSIBLY take "a week," in arathian's words, but simply having it exist in 1861, "close enough" to being accurate for the time.

as Naselus said earlier, we are more interested in a historically flavored sandbox. We did discuss it, but it would require religious rebels - something we didnt have time to implement support for. Doing specific events etc is flavor details, and I still think we did the right thing working on more core game mechanic changes (because its either one or the other). Also, I'm pretty sure there will be a community mod giving you some taiping flavor within the month.
 

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i believe we now have an answer why taiping rebellion would have a global effect should it succeeded

Not really. It's a reason why an ahistorical Taiping success might have had world-wide effects. Then again, it might have simply lead to another Opium-war style conflict to curb the new regime's desires. You're complaining that a lack of Taiping rebels is not historical, but Taiping only becomes interesting if the rebels win, otherwise it's just China having another bout of rebels, which has little to no effect on the game. A rebel victory was highly unlikely by the time the AHD scenario starts, their defeat at Shanhai had already occurred, western powers were already providing modern weapons to the Qing, and afterwards was mostly just mopping up. Yes, there were still strong rebels armies around, and we should perhaps add some, but they were ultimately doomed.

Also, consider, what would the actual effects in the game be if there was a great Taiping rebellion and they somehow won? Foot-binding, gender inequality, and China's inward focus isn't modeled anyway. China already has either a State controlled or Planned economy government as it is. They'd still be Uncivilised, maybe you'd un-sphere them so GPs have to build influence with the new rulers of China, perhaps grant them an RP boost for their radical ideas, but the net effect on the game would be tiny.
 

Darkrenown

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While the sentiment is true, I assume that majority of that 70k have already abandoned V2.

You'd be wrong.

Why is an event to form Germany or to build the Statute of Liberty in line with a sandbox nature of the game but not an actual, enormous rebellion?

Hmm, why could that be? Oh yes, Forming Germany was a thing that actually happened (yes, Taiping happened too, but it ultimately failed so it only had local effect), hugely changing the balance of power in Europe (the region the game is focused on) and leading to the 2 world wars. The Statute of Liberty decision is literally just a paragraph of text and an icon, I would point out the pointlessness of comparing that to the effort of having a well-done Taiping, but it's moot because both of your examples are invalid due to being from a seperate project than a theoretical Taiping anyway.
 

Darkrenown

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Got it. The American Civil War had huge international ramifications, and the Taiping Rebellion was only local.

You should just be honest and say you didn't care enough about China, which is a reasonable, if IMO wrong decision.

ACW had the very real potential to bring in the UK and France, turning it into a global conflict. The blockade of the South had global effects on cotton production as new supplies were created elsewhere. Many new warfighting technologies and concepts were either invented or proven (including trench warfare). Afterwards, the Union victory had a large effect on the pro-sufferage movements in the UK and lead to an expansion of voting rights, while the large Union army sharply curtailed the support available to the French-supported 2nd Mexican Empire.

Taiping had...?

Also, you really shouldn't be surprised a game called "Victoria" about the industrial revolution and the global empires of European powers is Eurocentric.
 

Darkrenown

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Actual intervention by foreign powers.
Did they? I don't remember reading about any prominent westerners who were influenced by it. Where's the Chinese Gordon of the Taiping rebellion, for instance?

Do post the numbers of troops UK/FRA used. AFAIK it was a few thousand local troops, some officers to lead Chinese troops, and some artillery. I'm not sure that's quite on the scale of a war with the USA.
 

Darkrenown

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So my reply was lost, gonna be briefer than I intended, sorry:

The historical Taiping had world-wide effects. Or are you seriously arguing that the deaths of over 20 million people, the destruction of the legitimacy of the Qing government, and the further incursion of British and French interests into China did not have any world wide effects?

The deaths, while obviously a major and terrible event in China, not not have any global effects. I doubt many outside China knew about them until historians documented them. Qing's legitimacy was already poor and European influence on the rise before, since that was a major reason for the rebellion.

By the very same arguments you use, the American civil war shouldn't be in the game. The Confederates lost, that civil war was similarly far removed from the real power centres of the world at the time, and it was by any measure a miniscule conflict compared to the Taiping rebellion.

If the scenario started after Gettysburg, perhaps.

The Opium wars, which relied on intimidating a decentralised, weak government and involved no serious land fighting, would be a very different matter if conducted against a revolutionary government with a strong, centrally-controlled military that was not in any mood to give up anything. The Chinese historically proved in Indochina that they actually were quite capable of turning out a respectable performance in a land war with a first-rate European power. "Just another Opium war" is making wildly optimistic assumptions. Of course, a Taiping government could be battered and weak and have to give in to the West - which would probably cause it to topple, plunging China into another civil war (this would also have pretty significant effects). However, a fairly robust and unified Taiping regime would be very unlikely to prove as easy prey as the Qing, for the very simple reason that they were more likely to call the bluff of a Western power and defeating China in a land war was a very different endeavour to sinking Chinese ships and grabbing some fortresses at the mouths of rivers.

Possibly, then again, it might have been possible to form Qing loyalist armies and provide officers and arms on a larger scale. I suspect a new Taiping regime would be pretty shakey and open to a counter-revolution due to their losses before the scenario starts and the radicalness of their position.

The game actually does model gender inequality, since you can enact female suffrage.

Well, true, but only if you have Universal suffrage already. Unless Taiping is going to be a democracy it doesn't really apply :)

It also models the opium problems introduced to China, and a Taiping government would outlaw opium sales, removing those effects and generating casus bellis for at least England and possibly a couple of other GPs. They would be unsphered, and a victorious Taiping regime also would unify China, which is a pretty significant alteration. It would also change China's state religion to Protestant, give them a malus to pop growth, and an increase in literacy gain. There's probably a few more things I can think of, but that's more alterations to China, using nothing but existing game mechanics, than nearly any other event in the game causes to any country.

True, that could be interesting, although having them unify China early brings back the unwanted "SoI CHI for massive economy boost" we wanted to be rid of.
 

podcat

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wow 10 pages...

c0qk1.jpg
 

podcat

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Everybody say thanks to podcat. Instead of the thread being closed, you get a nice screenshot!

I do have to say it was a tough choice between the two actually
 

podcat

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I'm sorry Podcat but I have to ask, Is the Taiping Rebellion now officially in the game as of next patch?

yes, but dont expect them to survive for very long. at this point they had already effectively lost.
 

podcat

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Emboldened by a concession from the developers, the cycle of request creep continues.
/
180px-David_attenborough.jpg

[video=youtube;cGF1NP-FrCU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGF1NP-FrCU[/video]
 
Last edited:

podcat

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podcat

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Darkrenown

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You'll see. I'll have the Mingol Empire worried that the 2 factions of Yapan - Korea and The Samurays - will unite and invade them with their newly invented Tanks via the wide land bridge between their two nations.