A-history suggestions

[Cybvep]

Yeah, but considering the fact that China was very poor, agricultural country with little to no industry, huge population and authoritarian government, it's logical that military spending in its case can be very misguiding. How much did the Soviets spend on military during wartime BTW? I can imagine that out of all majors they spent the most (So, you've got a nice bread, right? Then you will have a half and we will create a tank from your other half, Comrade), but what were the specific values?

 

[Ithron]

According to: http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...x-4XX1&sig=AHIEtbRQHPESbJuYbqbJU6nTUu-0Iudg9w
In 1940 Soviet Union spent 17% of GDP in military, in 1942 - 60%, in 1943 - 61% and in 1944 - 50%. But I'd suggest checking some additional sources to be sure about this.

 

[Neoman]

Hmm, if he is in the game maybe an event to ignore and/or execute Gregori Rasputin before he gains too much power in the Tsar's family?

 

[Ithron]

The best a-history would be allowing to play from 1914-1964 Even though I love events and thus value the most mods with most of them (mod33 ) but if diplomatic and espionage AI is capable, then there should be no problem for such a long scenario and it doesnt matter that after 40 years of play there are no or nearly no events left.. I think most of potential DH players or at least forumites are quite capable of editing files and creating the further conflicts or whatever if a long game is becoming boring.. Well, if you insist on having seperate scenarios instead of long one, at least some support would be nice for some ingame utility to transfer the country files between the scenarios because while it might mean little for big countries, achieving something a-historical with a small-medium country and then having to do it all again isnt a nice prospect.

With so many mods and quite many alternative history paths developed in Hoi2, wouldn't it be possible to take those event packs from already developed mods and thus somehow patch up together to allow the Grand Scenario after all? For example in the case of victory of Germany in WW1, just let the world go into Kaiserreich mod world.. Or at least leave a possibility for such, because if you have at least a basic (even if crappy) Grand Scenario then patching it up over time with new additions would be easier then developing it from scrach.

 

[Conanteacher]

In 1940 Soviet Union spent 17% of GDP in military, in 1942 - 60%, in 1943 - 61% and in 1944 - 50%. But I'd suggest checking some additional sources to be sure about this.

We should remember not to compare incomparable values.

E.g. In the 1950's China you could have 45.000 soldiers-workers complete a dam with their shovels in 3 months. This would cost you 45.000*90 portions of food, 45000 shovels (which in turn cost 45000 sticks and some metal), perhaps some pencils for the planners, and very few other things. In Belgium this would require the salary of some hundreds technicians, oil and maintenance for the machinery, the use of highly sophisticated tools, the reward for the construction company (private sector, remember!), perhaps some gifts for the ministers, compensation for the farms-to-be-flooded, some environmental research on the consequences etc.etc....
How many million Francs would that be?

But in game matter it's only IC. So If Belgium was able to build 2000 tanks a year and it should have 20 IC, then a ComChina able to build 20.000 tanks should have 200 IC.No matter if Belgium's GDP was 20 times higher because of Kongolese diamonds or anything. Money is irrelevant.

I really like this fact, because it reminds me that in real life also, the only valuable thing is labour - not numbers.

 

[Porkman]

E.g. In the 1950's China you could have 45.000 soldiers-workers complete a dam with their shovels in 3 months. This would cost you 45.000*90 portions of food, 45000 shovels (which in turn cost 45000 sticks and some metal), perhaps some pencils for the planners, and very few other things. In Belgium this would require the salary of some hundreds technicians, oil and maintenance for the machinery, the use of highly sophisticated tools, the reward for the construction company (private sector, remember!), perhaps some gifts for the ministers, compensation for the farms-to-be-flooded, some environmental research on the consequences etc.etc....
How many million Francs would that be?

There's always been a need in HOI for a way to represent the difference between the aggregate of cottage industry and industrial production. They haven't figured out a good way to do it.

 

[Cybvep]

I agree with above points, but with one exception. China had huge GDP, comparable with Germany. That didn't mean much, though. Soviets had lesser GDP than Germany. And so what? They could still outproduce them in everything during wartime. GDP is not good for such things.

China should be able to sustain big army with good defensive capabilities in harsh terrain, as they historically did. Sure, it wasn't modern and well-trained, but it would be EXTREMELY hard for the Japanese to conquer the western China, not to mention securing it after the conquest.

 

[Xesan]

An a-historical Japanese Civil War between the Communists, Fascists, and Democrats Scenario.

Arab Revolt Scenario.

Kaissereich Scenario, Austrian Civil and dissolution of the empire

Kaisserreich Scenario, British and French Syndicalist Civil War

 

[Ithron]

We should remember not to compare incomparable values.

E.g. In the 1950's China you could have 45.000 soldiers-workers complete a dam with their shovels in 3 months. This would cost you 45.000*90 portions of food, 45000 shovels (which in turn cost 45000 sticks and some metal), perhaps some pencils for the planners, and very few other things. In Belgium this would require the salary of some hundreds technicians, oil and maintenance for the machinery, the use of highly sophisticated tools, the reward for the construction company (private sector, remember!), perhaps some gifts for the ministers, compensation for the farms-to-be-flooded, some environmental research on the consequences etc.etc....
How many million Francs would that be?

But in game matter it's only IC. So If Belgium was able to build 2000 tanks a year and it should have 20 IC, then a ComChina able to build 20.000 tanks should have 200 IC.No matter if Belgium's GDP was 20 times higher because of Kongolese diamonds or anything. Money is irrelevant.

I really like this fact, because it reminds me that in real life also, the only valuable thing is labour - not numbers.

Such significant differences can be represented by laws and sliders (i've made 20 laws in hoi3 and the situation and disparity between economies already look better, but only to extent, because actually hoi games give very, very shallow economy with very few coefficients to play with). Since production, and NOT military skill or resilient won the war, I think it is wrong to stop with the notion that representing proper war economy is too difficult or un-necessary. GDP can be used as one such coefficient. Production of steel (the basic material of nearly all military production, such comparisons and statistics have been done already) can also be easily introduced in game and compared. I dont think that current in-game resource "metal" really represents steel production. Worker productivity can also be comparable, though for this time period it can be deduced only from combination of economical stats, I dont think there were any statistics for this then. Literacy also can be, more easily compared and put into game, influencing productivity, GDP, research speed, consumer goods, etc. And with addition of 2-4 other such economical stats the hoi economy would look far better. Most of it would work automatically anyways, and introducting them shouldnt be a heavy load on CPU, so please devs, expand the economy..
Gee, sorry..this is not a-historical idea at all, sorry for off-topic.

 

[Porkman]

Giving China the option of having Yuan Shikai not declare himself Emperor, thus averting the National Protection War, and delaying the descent into warlordism at least until Yuan Shikai's death.

Delaying it until Yuan Shikai's death only delays it by 7 months. (He declared his attention to become emperor in November of 1915 and he died in June of 1916)

I think to really avert warlordism you'd have to have him removed right before he assumed the presidency but after he officially subordinated the Beiyang Army. One of the most damaging things he did was set the precedent that leadership of the republic coming from military power was entirely legitimate and that fueled the warlord era. If power had stayed or gone back to Sun Yat Sen and the actual revolutionaries, it would have been much harder for the provincial militarists to rationalize their autonomy. Yuan Shikai destroyed the legitimacy of the government merely by being president.

 

[LordInsane]

Delaying it until Yuan Shikai's death only delays it by 7 months. (He declared his attention to become emperor in November of 1915 and he died in June of 1916)

I think to really avert warlordism you'd have to have him removed right before he assumed the presidency but after he officially subordinated the Beiyang Army. One of the most damaging things he did was set the precedent that leadership of the republic coming from military power was entirely legitimate and that fueled the warlord era. If power had stayed or gone back to Sun Yat Sen and the actual revolutionaries, it would have been much harder for the provincial militarists to rationalize their autonomy. Yuan Shikai destroyed the legitimacy of the government merely by being president.

Well, it might also alter the specifics of the warlordism - for example, the ostensible government might be more widely accepted as the nominal government by warlords if the NPW had not occured as there was no reason for it.

I know one althistorical TL out there that does it by killing him just after he assumed the Presidency, and it does seem fairly sourced and well-thought out. I guess that falls under the 'gone back to' category, even though it ends up with a compromise candidate and something quite contrary to a continued Republic of China.

 

[Fulmen]

it would at last [for example] be possible to lock down the Soviet Baltic fleet in Leningrad, as was planed to be done by combined Polish, Estonian and Finnish military

It was done. The Suursaari island in the Gulf of Finland acts as a lock. Ever since the E3 map (or Balkan Improvement/East European...something map, as it was called back then) was announced, I've been trying to get map makers to include Suursaari because of its extreme importance in Baltic Sea naval warfare. Åland also acts as a lock regarding the Gulf of Bothnia.

 

[Ithron]

Mkei, I didnt know that the plan actually worked. I thought it didnt, because Soviet Union occupied the Baltic States and thus part of the coast and also Poland's fleet ceased to exist and so the plan didnt work out. Also, it should be impossible for hostile fleet to go directly from Gulf of Finland to Gulf of Riga, if Saaremaa is held by opposing force.

 

[Fulmen]

Mkei, I didnt know that the plan actually worked. I thought it didnt, because Soviet Union occupied the Baltic States and thus part of the coast and also Poland's fleet ceased to exist and so the plan didnt work out. Also, it should be impossible for hostile fleet to go directly from Gulf of Finland to Gulf of Riga, if Saaremaa is held by opposing force.

Think Winter War and especially Continuation War.

 

[unmerged(151332)]

my history sugestion is this

http://www.europa-universalis.com/forum/showthread.php?t=500554

 

[Barón Rojo]

Mussolini don't invade Ethiopia or is not pressed by the Entente, Italy join with the allies against Germany in the WW2.

 

[Beleg32]

Mussolini don't invade Ethiopia or is not pressed by the Entente, Italy join with the allies against Germany in the WW2.

Germany without any allies would be crashed so easily, don't think that scenario would work. Even if Italy was such a weak ally they did help Germany in they conquer of Austria, as they left their armies from Austria borderss and let German troops in with no trouble.

 

[Akaki]

Pilsudski's plan for central-european federation comming into life (twas close!), and maybe later a civil war between Poland and Ukraine.

Greater Yugoslavia, with whole Macedonia, Bulgaria, Albania.

Unification of Scandinavia!

Polish pre-emtive strike on Germany in 1934 (proposed, France objected). Initial succes of Poland, France remains neutral=remlitarisation of Germany and WWI-style frontline, France support Poland=Germany defeated, UK supports Germany, UK-Germany Axis?

My oh my...

 

[Beleg32]

Pilsudski's plan for central-european federation comming into life (twas close!), and maybe later a civil war between Poland and Ukraine.

Greater Yugoslavia, with whole Macedonia, Bulgaria, Albania.

Unification of Scandinavia!

Polish pre-emtive strike on Germany in 1934 (proposed, France objected). Initial succes of Poland, France remains neutral=remlitarisation of Germany and WWI-style frontline, France support Poland=Germany defeated, UK supports Germany, UK-Germany Axis?

My oh my...

Great suggestions imo. I would love them to be in the game most

 

[Fulmen]

Pilsudski's plan for central-european federation comming into life (twas close!)

Not really. Maybe for Poland and Lithuania but beyond that it wasn't. Pilsudski was far too ambitious when making the plan.