A historical inaccuracy concerning Shia

[Mewtini]

So, admist all the complaints over main menu issues, lack of Aggressive Expansion, and other such things, I have something that may want to be addressed. In one of my classes, I showed the map of the game at 1492 to my history professor because he was trying to find a map of Aq Qoyunlu (proof that EU4 CAN help you in college). He's a professor on Islamic history, in case you're wondering, so this WAS relevant to the class. Anyways, the topic of the Timurids controlling Persia came up, and I mentioned to him how this probably factored into the Timurd instability, because most of the people in Persia were Shia, compared with the Sunni government.

Turns out, that's entirely wrong. Around the time the game starts, 90% of the population of Persia was Sunni. They only converted to Shia after the Saffavids came along, resulting in the demographics today which are the opposite of back then. I know it's probably for balance purposes, but perhaps to stay truer to historical accuracy, we should have the Persia region start out Sunni, then convert by decision should they break off from the Timurids. It might be a bad idea of we're talking balance, but the Timurids are already pretty unstable as it is, and they tend to get more instability with their events.

Just figured you should know

 

[grommile]

You're not the first to make this exact observation round these parts

The whole situation in that area is both a mess, and a horrible nuisance to get feeling "right".

 

[durbal]

The population was Sunni but the Persian leadership (the Safavids you mentioned) were Shia. The Persian flag used in the game is the Safavid.

 

[LS22]

Why not some Shia RC pop up during the game, just like the Protestant and Reformed RC?

 

[Mewtini]

The population was Sunni but the Persian leadership (the Safavids you mentioned) were Shia. The Persian flag used in the game is the Safavid.

Yeah, I'm saying the the Safavids were the one who brought Shia to Persia in the first place. In the start date, that area is all Sunni.

Why not some Shia RC pop up during the game, just like the Protestant and Reformed RC?

That would make even LESS sense. Shia and Ibadi Islam are already firmly established, just not widely practiced. The reason why Protestant and Reformed faiths are special is because they're basically brand new, and the reform centers are used to simulate the dynamic going on in Europe at the time.

 

[LS22]

Yeah, I'm saying the the Safavids were the one who brought Shia to Persia in the first place. In the start date, that area is all Sunni.


That would make even LESS sense. Shia and Ibadi Islam are already firmly established, just not widely practiced. The reason why Protestant and Reformed faiths are special is because they're basically brand new, and the reform centers are used to simulate the dynamic going on in Europe at the time.

But what triggered their spreading and gathering more and more people on their doctrine at the time?

 

[vfmikey]

But what triggered their spreading and gathering more and more people on their doctrine at the time?

Political decision. Safawids were Shia themselves, so they more or less forcefully converted the populace. Cuius regio, eius religio, as they say in the Holy Roman Empire.

EU4/EU at all will never properly simulate religious/ethnic situation and it's pretty obvious - it's simplified for "fun" factor, and it's ok. Persia, the region, is Shia in the game in 1444 to railroad it a bit and guarantee in some fashion that 9/10 games you will see somewhat historically accurate Persia in the Middle East.

It's a design choice. Devs stated multiple times that pops are Vicky specific and won't see their way into EU.

 

[Chamboozer]

Religious beliefs were hardly cut-and-dry in 15th Century Iran. The line between Sunnis and Shi'ites, outside of scholarly circles, was a very blurry one. Beliefs associated with Shi'ism were already very widespread in Iran, as were heterodox Sufi orders which would eventually ease the transition to the Safavid period. Iran's population was technically Sunni, but it was already, for all intents and purposes, leaning heavily in a Shi'ite direction.

Supposedly the Safavids converted Iran to Shi'ism, but the mechanism by which they did this is not well understood and in any case we all know how ineffective forced conversions actually were in other historical scenarios. The Spanish tried it and failed, ultimately having to forcibly expel their morisco population because of the prevalence of crypto-Muslims, and that was a minority of the population in Spain. The idea that Iran went from majority Sunni in 1500 to majority Shi'ite in 1550 just because of the Safavids simply doesn't make sense. The Safavids successfully resist multiple Ottoman and Özbek invasions while simultaneously engaging in forced conversion on a historically unprecedented scale? No, Iran must already have been heading in that direction long before the Safavids came to power, and that very fact helps to explain how the Safavids rose in the first place. The forced conversions more likely involved kicking out the minority of remaining Sunnis, clustered in the urban centers where the Safavids could exercise greater power and authority.

 

[Rikissa]

One important question is how strongly the Persian population at the time identified with Sunni beliefs or if rather the lines were indeed blurry

But it was certainly a forceful conversion, if you wanted to model it ingame you could give Persia a temporary +Missionary Strength modifier through an event (like the event that flips them to Shia even if they pop out as Sunni)

They would still have to deal with Sunni rebels though

 

[DanubianCossak]

Im pretty sure devs are aware of it.

My guess is that the reason its set the way its set, is simplicity. Anything else would require either scripting that results in railroading or an entirely new mechanic (which equals development time).

 

[Trin Tragula]

First: Shia certainly where present in Iran before the Safavids.
Second: In the game a province is either Sunni or Shia. In real life Iran most identified as Sunni while at the same time honoring the imams and in the period at the start of the game there was in general a great heterodox mix of Shia influences, sunnism and millenarian sects like the Safavids or Musha‘sha’iyyah.
Historically the Safavids managed to get the support of large and religiously motivated parts of the population. After uniting the important parts of Persia they then started to enforce religious unity but many of the aforementioned elements remained. It's unlikely the population actually saw this as an as big a shift as it seems today.
It's hard for people to even agree on if rulers of the sheep federations were Shia or Sunni as they tended to patronize both religions. Its likely most people where the same (this goes for the Sunni/Shia split in the persianate states in India too btw).

None of this could be covered in game if the area was religiously homogenous, instead we let Shia represent the particular mix of traditions in Iran as well as the niners, twelvers and some other religious traditions elsewhere.

Short version: Yes they identified as Sunni as far as we know but it's not given other Sunni would've recognized them as such as they mixed from both sides. A game has to make abstractions and we went with showing the area as Shia rather than have it be religiously United and stable (something it certainly was not).

Had this not been a game we might be more nuanced but it is

Edited: for better spelling of the Musha‘sha’iyyah.

 

[Trin Tragula]

But it was certainly a forceful conversion, if you wanted to model it ingame you could give Persia a temporary +Missionary Strength modifier through an event

They already have this (and need it as many provinces will have switched to Sunni by the time they show up) as well as other events that discuss the religious make up of the region and how to enforce unity later on.

 

[CoolSpin]

I learn something every day on this forum.

 

[Quaade]

They already have this (and need it as many provinces will have switched to Sunni by the time they show up) as well as other events that discuss the religious make up of the region and how to enforce unity later on.

Not being anyway near an expert in the area... But couldn´t you make it so that Persian revolt are triggered by disaster or event that increases unrest quite a bit for persian region? Then afterwards make some DHE for Persia going Shia?

 

[grommile]

Not being anyway near an expert in the area... But couldn´t you make it so that Persian revolt are triggered by disaster or event that increases unrest quite a bit for persian region?

There are already DHEs to make Iran unruly (it's one of two events associated with trying to make TIM collapse, and a couple of others relating to the Sufi orders).

Then afterwards make some DHE for Persia going Shia?

There are already a bunch of DHEs associated with Shi'ite proselytization in Iran subsequent to the establishment of the Grand Master of the Safavaiyya Order as Shahanshah.