A functional Sector AI/System will solve most of our problems.

[asveron]

TLDR:
-Stellaris got a lot of improvements.
-We used to have strong incentives to use sectors. It was intuitive and kept late game micromanagement simple.
-I realized that we are essentially playing Stellaris II (Early Access).
-A new Sector AI/System is probably in development.

Stellaris is becoming even better but...

I picked up the game recently and was amazed by the amount of new features and balance. Naked Corvette spam was the bane of my enjoyment. Pretty quickly, I hit late game and realized that micromanagement became pretty absurd. I checked the forums and realized this was a common problem.

Sectors are missing.

Not using sectors used to have huge penalties. It felt intuitive that an large empire was less efficient and sectors AI weren't perfect. However, sectors still functioned more or less. It seems the developers made the changes to planetary management and didn't have time to update the sector AI yet. It was dysfunctional enough that they didn't want to force us to use sectors. Essentially, a crucial mechanic became optional because it wasn't working yet.

Why Stellaris players are often disgruntled.

We are being marketed with expansions for an early access game. Stellaris made the choice for a huge gradual overhaul. This has the advantage in that we keep all the previous content. When Civilization makes a new game, it feels more complete. However, new Civilization sequels may feel relatively bland in comparison of it's expansion-packed predecessor.

In the case of Stellaris, every gameplay update effects all of the expansions. We often end up with poor balance and broken features. Since "Stellaris II" is free, it's being funded by periodic expansions. There's no marketing incentive for Paradox to tell us "This game may feel incomplete because we are doing a free massive overhaul". Overall it feels a bit dishonest, but understandable. Stellaris development feels like an empire going tall and wide at the same time. The previous dev dairies have already said that they are re-designing sectors. I'm fairly hopeful that Stellaris will eventually be a really amazing/complete game.

 

[exi123]

The old pre 2.2 sectors fullfilled their job perfectly: They reduced the amount of stuff you had to manage again and again drastically in the lategame. When well managed, you had only your core planets without sector, the rest was in sectors and out of your mind.

With an eye on that it was so easy to conquer in these days: Capture a planet, pre build everything, throw it in a sector and let it run by itself. I guess most of us didnt allow the ai to rebuild. This whole part of management is gone and needs to be done by hand...

For me, 2.1 is the best playable version of Stellaris, especially in the lategame.

 

[KingAlamar]

The old pre 2.2 sectors fullfilled their job perfectly: They reduced the amount of stuff you had to manage again and again drastically in the lategame. When well managed, you had only your core planets without sector, the rest was in sectors and out of your mind.

With an eye on that it was so easy to conquer in these days: Capture a planet, pre build everything, throw it in a sector and let it run by itself. I guess most of us didnt allow the ai to rebuild. This whole part of management is gone and needs to be done by hand...

For me, 2.1 is the best playable version of Stellaris, especially in the lategame.

While I prefer 1.9 I see agree with your point on the TILE system. Micro was NOT a problem. In addition, because the TILE system didn't allow for economic death spirals, the AI had a floor on just how poorly it could perform and thus made balancing a little easier IMHO.

Devil's Advocate: The TILE system was also so "easy" that you could sleep-walk through it so there wasn't really any truely MEANINGFUL decisions to be made.

Recommendation: I like the core game-play well enough of the current "planet / pop / job" management during the early game when you [hopefully] don't have a lot of planets. What we need is a good transition point where we can manage SECTORS instead of individual planets/jobs/pops during the MID game. I'd like to take another step back and manage the Empire-as-a-whole + Vassals-as-a-whole + International Diplomacy during the late game. Having a functional SECTOR AI would be a good step towards that end. A different step may be to allow the "sector AI" to cheat... put that's a different topic.

 

[prismaticmarcus]

What we need is a good transition point where we can manage SECTORS instead of individual planets/jobs/pops during the MID game

this was brought up in a recent post (i just read it today) and i think it's definitely a smart idea. the engine, IMHO, needs to enable a transition from planet management to sector management in a seamless way.

i hope they're looking at this as part of the internal politics overhaul

 

[monkeypunch87]

this was brought up in a recent post (i just read it today) and i think it's definitely a smart idea. the engine, IMHO, needs to enable a transition from planet management to sector management in a seamless way.

i hope they're looking at this as part of the internal politics overhaul

Yeah, this could be a solution. An overlay, that combines several planets in a sector to a similar overview like the planet overview.

The planets in the sectors have 3 free building slots? This new overlay shows you this and you fill these slots for the sector wide and the sector puts it on its planets. You wouldn't lose anything, if you want to micro, you could still switch to seperat planet overview.


But in the end, it is not my preferred solution. I would like to manage my empire like a federation, where the sectors are out of my control and act like parts of my "empire federation" with laws and stuff.

 

[KingAlamar]

Yeah, this could be a solution. An overlay, that combines several planets in a sector to a similar overview like the planet overview.

The planets in the sectors have 3 free building slots? This new overlay shows you this and you fill these slots for the sector wide and the sector puts it on its planets. You wouldn't lose anything, if you want to micro, you could still switch to seperat planet overview.


But in the end, it is not my preferred solution. I would like to manage my empire like a federation, where the sectors are out of my control and act like parts of my "empire federation" with laws and stuff.

I was thinking along similar lines in terms of sectors being MUCH more separated than they are now. This could lead to a situation where ADMIN CAP could be overhauled and [IMHO] improved compared to the relatively flat system we have in place now. Other elements, such as sector-level taxes, and similar could be implemented as a mitigation of the benefits of a "sprawling" empire. Then when you add INTERNAL POLITICS into the mix then you can really spice things up.

 

[exi123]

Yeah, this could be a solution. An overlay, that combines several planets in a sector to a similar overview like the planet overview.

(The planets in the sectors have 3 free building slots? This new overlay shows you this and you fill these slots for the sector wide and the sector puts it on its planets. You wouldn't lose anything, if you want to micro, you could still switch to seperat planet overview.)


[...]

This sounds like a neat solution that you dont have to check douzens of planets anymore, one overview and a few clicks to get things sectorwide done without searching and scrolling? Sounds cool... But: There are things which are decided only planetwise: City districts and housing for example, it is not possible to manage this in general for a sector, these are planetary decisions the player is doing. Energy and mineral districts are not bond to to that, it doenst matter on which planet these are build. The only question here is if there is building boosting the effectiveness of distrcits or buildings, these need to be preffered.

A solution could that these boosterbuidlings can only build once per sector with smaller buffs to all planets, as a toll to decentralization.

 

[monkeypunch87]

But: There are things which are decided only planetwise: City districts and housing for example, it is not possible to manage this in general for a sector, these are planetary decisions the player is doing.

I don't see a reason why this couldn't be possible. The sector could become the new overarching entity where it doesn't matter for your citizens where the City district and housing is build.

I mean, the leaders can instant travel across the galaxy. So, why can't your Pops commute from one planet to the next in a sector for work?

 

[grommile]

The sector could become the new overarching entity where it doesn't matter for your citizens where the City district and housing is build.

Until one of the inhabited systems falls to a Total War shortly before both sides hit 100 WE, but the others remain in your hands.

 

[monkeypunch87]

Until one of the inhabited systems falls to a Total War shortly before both sides hit 100 WE, but the others remain in your hands.

Well, you lose some. But how is it different to now?

 

[Hemothep]

I don't see a reason why this couldn't be possible. The sector could become the new overarching entity where it doesn't matter for your citizens where the City district and housing is build.

I mean, the leaders can instant travel across the galaxy. So, why can't your Pops commute from one planet to the next in a sector for work?

That would require some work on part of the devs, but it sounds like a tech that allows you to compensate housing across a sector.

Now let me tell you why I'm against it:

1. It's immersion breaking: FTL travel in itself is a stretch. Now you're telling me that everyone got their personal FTL-capable space craft? Come on! Why would I build a carrier BB if every dinky habitat should have billions of civillian fighters?

2. It's a meaningless intermediate. If you can manage planets as a group, then why do it on the level of sectors and not on the level of your entire country?

3. It's actually the wrong approach. What we realy need is better planet automation. We need to be able to tell the AI: This is supposed to be a tech world and that is supposed to be a generator habitat and actually see a decent tech world and generator habitat if we visit them 20 years later.

 

[tobias.mb]

Sectors don't work well, but the planet automation works OK(-ish), if you use a planet specialisation focusing on worker class jobs or Refinery World. Especially Rural Worlds will usually end up without any deficit. Those worlds will also not have any significant output, but if you're at the point, where you just want to not care about your conquests, it's usually good enough.
And if you do end up with some excess minerals from all the conquered rural worlds, you can simply build a alloy or research Habitat in your core.

 

[Dëzaël]

If we are to unify the planet managing and the sector managing UIs, let me present you the Empire Manager™ :
______________________________________________________________________________________
|.................................|.................................|............................................|.............................................|
|.................................|.................................|............................................|.............................................|
|..........List................|.........List................|.........\m/_(>_<)_\m/........|.............................................|
|...........of..................|...........of...................|_______________________ |.............................................|
|.......Sectors...........|.......Planets...........|.........................................................................................|
|...........&...................|...........in...................|......................Usual Planet view..............................|
|.....their stats........|......selected...........|......................for selected Planet...........................|
|...(retractable)......|.......Sector.............|........................................................................................|
|..................................|............&...................|............................or detailed.....................................|
|..................................|......their stats........|.....................selected Sector view........................|
|..................................|....(retractable).....|...........................(toggle-able)..................................|
|__________________ |__________________ |_______________________________________________|

Have this opened everytime the player clicks on a dang planet, and get rid of that heresy of a sector UI that flees everytime you want planet details. The colonization manager should find its way in that UI too, as a retractable window, and each retractable window could be toggled as the main view for details, the current main becoming a less detailed retractable window.

Have the planets gone from the outliner, replaced by the Empire Manager™, that would have the same face as a regular planet as they're now, but alone, so we keep the alert icons at empire level, and kill a good chunk of the outliner scrolling as well as the sector icon from the left while securing some ease of micro in these dire automation times. Then have the Empire Manager™ save its last state so you can retrieve it pristine opened in one click after centering the view on whatever via right click.

Me wants this from day 1. Doesn't prevent fixing automation though.

 

[Monturiol]

While I prefer 1.9 I see agree with your point on the TILE system. Micro was NOT a problem.

Yes it was.
It ABSOLUTELY was.
The major complaint against the tile system was that it was micro-heavy. Don't you remember how much work it took to ensure your industrious pops sat on the mines and your agrarian pops sat on the farms and your mineral silo was adjacent to 4 mines and your capital was adjacent to 4 mines/power plants and your research labs were adjacent to the research-boosting tile blockers and the AI couldn't do any of that so you had to do it all yourself?

Ironically the reason the tile system got dumped was because everyone agreed it was micro-heavy and the AI couldn't use it. So the devs replaced it with the jobs system, which is... more micro heavy and the AI more can't use it.

 

[KingAlamar]

Yes it was.
It ABSOLUTELY was.
The major complaint against the tile system was that it was micro-heavy. Don't you remember how much work it took to ensure your industrious pops sat on the mines and your agrarian pops sat on the farms and your mineral silo was adjacent to 4 mines and your capital was adjacent to 4 mines/power plants and your research labs were adjacent to the research-boosting tile blockers and the AI couldn't do any of that so you had to do it all yourself?

Ironically the reason the tile system got dumped was because everyone agreed it was micro-heavy and the AI couldn't use it. So the devs replaced it with the jobs system, which is... more micro heavy and the AI more can't use it.

I was going to argue with you HOWEVER we at least agree that the current system is MORE micro heavy -- so no need to alienate someone who may be sympathetic to my desire to lessen micro

While I would often manage the "core sector" pretty closely we really only had to worry about 25 or so mouse clicks / decisions per max-size-planet. 25 decisions for what buildings on which tiles. 25 more decisions IF I wanted to optimize my POP placements to work those tiles. However early in the game I didn't usually have lots of different species / templates that were optimized for different functions so there was rarely a significant need to do this vs. the AI.

Later in the game, where MICRO would be an issue, I would just prebuild my 25 buildings and then I would let the AI worry about what POP goes where. Because of tech bonuses, building bonuses, etc. the opportunity cost for optimizing my POPs on the 58th planet was just too much for me.

NOTE: If I had ROBOTS optimized for mining or agriculture or whatever I would prebuild those pops exactly where I wanted them to be -- assuming that I even wanted to bother that is.

 

[exi123]

I was going to argue with you HOWEVER we at least agree that the current system is MORE micro heavy -- so no need to alienate someone who may be sympathetic to my desire to lessen micro

While I would often manage the "core sector" pretty closely we really only had to worry about 25 or so mouse clicks / decisions per max-size-planet. 25 decisions for what buildings on which tiles. 25 more decisions IF I wanted to optimize my POP placements to work those tiles. However early in the game I didn't usually have lots of different species / templates that were optimized for different functions so there was rarely a significant need to do this vs. the AI.

Later in the game, where MICRO would be an issue, I would just prebuild my 25 buildings and then I would let the AI worry about what POP goes where. Because of tech bonuses, building bonuses, etc. the opportunity cost for optimizing my POPs on the 58th planet was just too much for me.

NOTE: If I had ROBOTS optimized for mining or agriculture or whatever I would prebuild those pops exactly where I wanted them to be -- assuming that I even wanted to bother that is.

The old sector ai was actually pretty decent on setting the best pops to the tiles. It was only a bit messy when it had to much buildings for to less pops. Some buildings had more weight, so a slave could end up on a research facility for example. But that was only for the time until a better pop was available. The weights for jobs had actually the same system as it is now, but it was less complex because there was no strata with demotion like now (which should be gone honestly... brings more problems than it actually solves).

I wasnt that active in the forums in the times before 2.2, was micro really an issue for the players? I never really had a problem with this kind of stuff, but i was still learning the game and i actually love to manage my empire, but at one point something needs to be "done" for me. And the old sectors fullfilled the job pretty good as i know now...

For me the "micro" with the new system isnt from to much clicking when building up a planet/sector, it is because i have to do it over a long time period all over again. Your first planets are with you for 50-100 years, with resaerch an growth, which is fine i guess. When the amount of planets in my empire grows, i need to visit more and more and more planets over a course of 50 years to build, upgrade and control them.

There were discussions for some kind of templates or the ability to prebuild planets again (and the ai only upgrades when pops are available) and now a sector view fom where you can build and manage all the planets. These are all very cool ideas and i guess all of these will fullfill the job for reducing "micro". Lets see if if we will get something to manage our empires without ai but in much more efficient way... (together with migration, what a dream...)

 

[Maethendias]

ngl, i came up with a system of "coreworlds" and "outposts", which not only would solve all the micro management problems AND population problems in the game

basically you only "colonize" (and micro) core worlds, which would be limited/supported by a range of outpost worlds, that have no "pops", but districts that siphon a small part of ressources to your core worlds, obviously core worls wouldnt be like worlds are now (giving a fixed number of jobs), instead buildings would give "jobs per x pops", while districs would only be an outpost feature

that would make core worlds actually important corner stones of your empire, strategically and economically, while the vast majority of outpost planets would be just that, ressource posts

which would make wars more impactfull, it would make empire management better, and it could enable us to acutally DO something with all those "uninhabitable planets"... obviously we couldnt "colonize" them to the scale of acutal colonies, but outposts working on a toxic world, and syphoning exotic gases could be a thing


all this would extremly condense population in the galaxy to a few coreworlds per empire, which should MASSIVELY reduce the population job calculations overall (since there are less places to check population now), which would improve lategame performance immensly

it would also remove the need for sectors completly, and FINALLY fix the outliner planet view

 

[exi123]

@Maethendias I agree with you that an other approach to the management in general would solve many issues. A systemwide way to develop your economy for example, with different factors like planets, barren worlds, asteroids etc... but i guess this is more for Stellaris 2.

 

[Dr. B]

Amen to this - less micro, more empire management from the mid game is what this game needs more than anything.

 

[asveron]

There were discussions for some kind of templates or the ability to prebuild planets again (and the ai only upgrades when pops are available) and now a sector view fom where you can build and manage all the planets. These are all very cool ideas and i guess all of these will fullfill the job for reducing "micro". Lets see if if we will get something to manage our empires without ai but in much more efficient way... (together with migration, what a dream...)

If redesigning sectors will take longer than may, i hope they give us better templates for now.

*I just realized there was already sector megathread.