A few historical things that might be interesting and easy to code

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Jomini

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So there are several major dynamics of the era that are not currently (well) represented in game, here are a few stabs at some simple things that would add depth to the game and increase historical accuracy:

1. Development shifts on conversion. Under just about no circumstances in EUIV is it worth it to have heretic or heathen provinces over converted ones. It takes very, very little to make the transient costs of operating a missionary worth it to increase religious unity, decrease RR (in several ways normally), and remove other penalties. Historically, conversion efforts of this era had major implications on the economies being converted. France, for instance, lost huge numbers of skilled artisans when the Huguenots were "convinced" to embrace Catholicism. In counterpoint, those states who welcomed the religious emigres developed substantially (e.g. The Palatinate). Similar sorts of dynamics were observed with the expulsion of the Moors, the expulsion of the Salzburgers, etc. Many monarchs actively courted heretics to either settle in their lands or to have the ability to practice their faith in peace in order to bolster the economy/military.

In game terms, there should be some loss of development (particularly manpower) for converting a province. Some of this loss should result in free development for nearby states of the displaced faith or of tolerant states in the area.


2. No peace beyond the line. Historically, one of the reasons that colonization was slower was that states like Spain would actively interfere with colonization attempts (e.g. Fort Caroline). This occurred outside of normal war and made the Caribbean very difficult for commercial exploitation. Currently, only the ToT mechanism does anything close to this.

In game terms, a dominant colonial power should have the power to declare "No peace beyond the line" and burn enemy colonies. This should give a CB and be expensive (possibly limiting colonial growth outside of areas of dominance), but a large part of geopolitics centered on these sorts of efforts that fell well short of war.

It would be a stretch, but being able to negotiate some sort of "you settle there, I'll settle here" agreement would be nice. Either as a strictly punitive "here's a peace term, keep your protestant colonies out" or as a more flexible negotiation this would much better reflect history.

3. Missionaries to the natives. All Christian denominations and some of the Islamic ones as well often sent their missionaries to pagan tribes in Africa, northern Asia, and the New World. This was done out of religious zeal, but had practical effects on tribal relations, trade, and colonization. Missionary work was a huge systematic effort that currently resides only in events.

In game terms, sending missionaries on state sponsored missions should result in giving pagan AIs a chance to convert to the religion of the sending state. This should provide: fervor, church power, patriarch authority, piety, and papal influence as appropriate. Additionally, co-religionists among the primitives should result in increased trade power/income.

4. Heiresses. Female heirs and rulers are basically inferior versions of male heirs and rulers currently; they do nothing to change the diplomatic landscape. Brittany, Scotland, Burgundy, etc. saw rapid changes in fortune when the ruling line was reduced to just female heirs. A female heir should allow a new diplomacy option where states try to secure the heir's realm for themselves via a joint heir and personal union. This can be done through relations, bribery, and concessions (which a perfidious state, like England, might just pocket) or through force of arms (e.g. the Rough Wooing, Treaty of Sable). There was also the risk of a male heir being born and the contesting of these sorts of unions.

In game terms, female heirs should have a mechanic not unlike elective monarchies where foreign powers with royal marriages can jockey for a PU. However there should be some events that drive this to fail (e.g. the birth of a prince who supplants the princess). Ideally there would also be a CB that allows a forced RM with high progress towards the PU.

5. Development destruction. The 30 Years War and other prolonged, active conflicts did no merely burn off some money and manpower, but actively reduced economic output from the long term trend lines. From France in Napoleonic Iberia to Tilley in the HRE, there should be some form of war that actively de-develops land.

In game terms I could see this going one of two ways easily - if a province and the fort in whose ZOC it resides is fully looted 5 times in 10 years, further looting begins to strip off development. Alternatively, development reduction could be a peace term that is taken to weaken the enemy without having to break off ancient cores or take rebel spawning land yourself (also the game really needs more things to weaken enemies that doesn't burn through monarch power).


I think all of these are things the AI can handle without too much new code and all should add strategic depth for the human.
 
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Mattius

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Mattius

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mudcrabmerchant

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I like all of this, but I have one suggestion for the female heiresses. It should be able to be used to secure personal unions for the person with the female heir, provided that you are significantly more powerful than the prospective union partner.

In theoretical terms, the husband might be the senior part of the pair, but in practical terms, the court generally moved to the more influential realm, and the real life effect was comparable to in-game effect of the larger realm establishing a union over the smaller realm.
 
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lolada

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1. Agree, conversions should have side effects; not only revolt risk

2. Why not add 'neutral' pirates and bandits to New world - these would make all kind of problems, like stealing trade incomes and slowing colonization. Players would have to protect trade even in 100% controlled nodes. This would work better then now where AI country needs to send pirates.. which they rarely ever do.

3. Good idea; add some events there: successfull conversion, missionaries killed for example for loss of prestige, gold or piety

4. Good idea also, expand on royal marrieages, add an option to use Heirs/Heiresses to gain PUs more transparent like in CK2. Not that complex ofcourse. Current PU system gives big 'meh whatever' feeling.

5. Good idea, development should go both up and down
 

TheDarkMaster

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1. There would also need to be other ways to deal with the downsides of not converting other than just taking humanist ideas. Religious unity and the base revolt risk seriously punish people for not converting their provinces.

4. I do like lolada's suggestion here. Having the female heir/ruler shouldn't mean that you automatically get PUed. Castile certainly didn't end up the junior partner historically.

5. Actually, these sorts of things could be used as another thing that you can use military points on. There are very few ways to sink those points in useful ways right now. Especially if you don't have Common Sense.

Agree with your other suggestions as is.
 

AmbroStoics

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So there are several major dynamics of the era that are not currently (well) represented in game, here are a few stabs at some simple things that would add depth to the game and increase historical accuracy:

1.
In game terms, there should be some loss of development (particularly manpower) for converting a province. Some of this loss should result in free development for nearby states of the displaced faith or of tolerant states in the area.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there is an event for this. For example you Reformed Netherlands, France is converting a border state. You can choose to accept those fleeing religious prosecution for BT gain and opinion malus and BT loss for the neighbor, or turn them away for relations boost.

I know it is not on a scale that existed IRL, but that'd be hard to balance.
 

Jomini

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but there is an event for this. For example you Reformed Netherlands, France is converting a border state. You can choose to accept those fleeing religious prosecution for BT gain and opinion malus and BT loss for the neighbor, or turn them away for relations boost.

I know it is not on a scale that existed IRL, but that'd be hard to balance.

Personally, I haven't seen this event fire much (or ever I think). It is nice if it is there ...

But this should really apply in pretty much all religious conversions of the era. This is an era when religious ties more often than not were stronger than those of citizenship. When the Russians began a state policy of Orthodox enducement a large number of wealthy Muslim Tartars went south. When Tipu Sultan force converted Hindus there was a large exodus of Hindu craftsmen. If anything, we should have events to prevent development loss during religious conversion rather than only having losses in specific circumstances.


I like all of this, but I have one suggestion for the female heiresses. It should be able to be used to secure personal unions for the person with the female heir, provided that you are significantly more powerful than the prospective union partner.

In theoretical terms, the husband might be the senior part of the pair, but in practical terms, the court generally moved to the more influential realm, and the real life effect was comparable to in-game effect of the larger realm establishing a union over the smaller realm.

Yes, it shouldn't be where a female ruler gives an easy auto-junior PU. Ideally, there would be some element of risk (after all the Rough Wooing was pretty much a complete loss for the English). I could see several possible risks that would be an appropriate downside, but knowing which of these would present the best balance between depth, coding challenge, and historical flavor is not something I would get too deep into before getting the basic mechanism down.

Wishful thinking, I would love for there to be some more depth to PUs so that small seniors might need to make concession (e.g. George I/II) in order to maintain seniority. Ideally, long term PUs should tend to devolve to the larger state becoming senior without active intervention (I'd love to see the day when turning down a PU, is a viable & maximalist strategic choice).

Regardless, heiresses were among the most important diplomatic developments to occur in this era and they just aren't historically represented.



I do think Development should also go down. Particularly in major wars (like Coalitions or League Wars) so there are some real stakes beyond the small resource burn needed to just eke out a victory or buy an acceptable defeat.